Black Hills 68grain .223

[Mickster]

I have my JP 20" AR with Cooley comp zeroed for dead on at 200 meters using the excellent Black Hills 68 grain remanufactured (blue box) .223. This is what I use at matches for targets past 150 yards.

I've been trying to reload some ammo for practice using the same bullet (Hornady 68 match HPBT) but can't get my loads to hit at the same point. My reloads are grouping under 1moa, but 3 inches to the left every time. I don't know what would cause this. The elevation is perfect but for some reason the groups go left.

Instead of using up countless hours reinventing the wheel, I would like to ask:

Does anyone know the powder and charge Black Hills uses for that load? Or, has anyone already done the research and knows what load will produce the same point of impact at 200?

Thanks for your help.

[George]

Typically, the velocity is what sets the elevation/drop, but given that yours print 3” left, you are now into the world of keep trying things until it does what you want.

The things that can effect cartridge windage are OAL (which will effect pressure, which will then also effect velocity and elevation), case mouth tension, case sizing, case brand, amount or lack of crimp, case mouth thickness, and a number of other real small things having to do with case prep mostly.

If the handload is at the same velocity as the BH 68, then the other variable may also be powder choice. If the burn speed differs, all bets are off again even if the velocity result is the same.

In the end you just may have to settle for this variance.

Good luck

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Regards

[uscbigdawg]

I'm sure that George will beat me to the punch, but why not just do the load yourself? Just a thought.

I do understand that you're probably wanting to load for practice and shoot the factory loaded ammo (i.e. better reliability...in theory) for matches. You could just go through the zeroing process between the two (although that could get quite annoying).

My short answer to your question though is that ammunition companies have a much greater variety of powders that they use than is readily available to us and it's probably between a couple of popular powders.

My advice, buy the Hornadys in bulk (as they're available), get a couple of good solid powders (Varget...hint) and get the load you like.

Good dilemma to have (i.e. a sub-minute AR...I'm with you!).

Take care,

SPC Richard A. White

C-Co, 232nd Med BN

3rd PLT (Wolverines!)

Fort Sam Houston, TX

[George]

Now I have Richard bracketed

I managed to make 77gr and a 69gr handload go to the same POI with the same sight setting, but it took some charge fiddling (using the same powder, Varget of course) and playing with the OAL. In the end I settled for the 69gr load being same height and 1.25” left. It just wasn’t worth any further work. As it was, it was blind experimenting that got me there and I think the solution is to pick one and just go with it.

Me, I would go with the handload. I trust my handloads way more than any factory ammo. I have found less defective rounds in my re-loads than I have in factory .223 (match grade, or crap grade), over the years.

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Regards,

[Mickster]

Here's a though I had.

Even though I've got the rifle rock steady, bipod/floating forend and sandbag at butt, is it possible that the difference in movement of the gun from recoil is enough to move the groups to the left? With a JP CTR-02 there isn't much. But at 200 meters it wouldn't take much.

What do you guys think?

Anyway, I'll get some Varget and start doing some experimenting.

[KAL]

Ok, Now that this has been brought up. I am trying to use the 68 grain Hornady HPBT and Varget. I have tried several case manufactures and with the boat tail on the Hornadys being so much longer than the SMK 69, I can not get enough Varget in the case to go anywhere, At 24.3 grains the bullet head will not seat to proper OAL, It will pop out and go longer than mag length, This has screwed me at 3 gun mach last year. About 2500 to 2600 FPS max. for speed.

I am looking for something closer to the Federal Gold match with the 69 SMK. They push just under 3000 fps for me. Too expensive to buy them, I need to make them. I pulled one of their loads and weighed the powder charge, But I don't know what powder it is, I know its a ball powder. Anybody know what it is??

With the 69 SMK I can get about 25.5 grains of Varget in the case, Have not been able to get out to chrono it yet though.

How about the AA2230-c Is it a good powder for the cheaper 52-55 grain loads. How is it with temps, I am looking for a cheap way to make up some water gun like loads for the rifle side matches we have, They are always 100 yards or less and it would be a waste of money to shoot premium. I would like to shoot bulk rate 55 grainers and cheap powder for those matches.

Any help would be great.

On a side note The 68 grain Hornady HPBT is about 40 thousands longer in the Tail than the 69 SMK. !!!!

[George]

24.5 of Varget is what I use under the SMK 77 and it’s just touching powder, but not compressed.

The old time standby of 25.0 of WW 748 under the 68 or 69 gas never been a really accurate load for me, but it is a ball powder and should hold MOA in most rifles under the 68-69.

AA 2520 is what I use under SMK 77’s when i want a lot of powder in the case and it should work really well under a 68-69 as it is also a ball powder.

Be warned that both 748 and 2520 are a little temperature sensitive and may vary performance according to the weather.

Here is alink to a PDF of the AA loading manual showing data on 2520.

http://www.glinder.com/files/competitionsh...oading_data.pdf

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Regards,

[EricW]

All you have to do is get the bullet out of the muzzle at the same speed as Black Hills and let Sir Isaac Newton take over from there. As for the rest of it, use good reloading hygiene and you should be fine.

[Mickster]

Oh boy! Now maybe I won't run out and buy some Varget, especially if I won't be able to get the Hornady 68's to go 2750fps (Black Hills published velocity).

I tried ww748 and didn't get very good results either.

The 2230c might be the ticket if I can find some. I got some 2200 (Accurate calls it Data powder, surplus from pulled ammunition, like the 2230c) and it is giving me those 5 shot under 1moa groups at 200 meters. Too bad they're 3" to the left of the BH 68's.

The info coming from ya'll is going to save me some time, money and running around. Now if only we can hit the nail on the head and find a 68hpbt load that shoots like the BH 68's.

[ErikW]

I don't know what the problem is... about 25 gr of Varget should move out a 69 at its most accurate velocity (~2750) and not compress the bullet.

I'm really interested in chronograph results of the BH 68 and your own loads.

[KAL]

I agree but Like I said in my first post. You can not get at Hornady 68 HPBT bullet in the case at anywhere near 25 grains. A 69 SMK yes But not the Horn. Lets put this way to help describe my point.

The Hornady 68 HPBT has a J-LO Butt. And the 69 SMK has more of a Paris Hilton Butt. The Hornady boat tail is atleast 40 thou longer in the tail meaning more in the case.

I am told by most Hornady users that 2900-3000 Fps second is the ticket. This is not possible with Varget in a AR rifle at mag length. It is all I can do to get low 2600's and this is stuffing the case and makind a impression on the bullet face to get it in the case and it still will not hold anywhere near 2.25 Oal.

I spoke up when the thread was about using the 68 Hornady, I have it in my mind that I will need a different powder than Varget to throw those.

Anyone know what powder that they run in the 3000 fps Fed gold match 69 smk???

And is AA2230-c going to be a better powder to get these Hornady 68's moving faster than 2600 FPS???

[kimel]

The Sierra book lists AA2520 at max charge of 25.5gr throwing the 69gr SMK at 2900. That is as fast as they go in the AR platform (20" Colt HBAR) with that bullet.

They show data over 3000 in the bolt platform. Are you sure Fed is getting 3000 FPS out of an AR or is the marketting dept publishing their data?

[kurtm]

AA2460 w/ 24.5 gr and a 69SMK gives 2930-2960 in my JP rifle. Well under 1MOA and clean. I am going to try 2230C and see what it does, but in general I just use 55gr bullets, except in the Prairie dog rifle which is a 24" barrel AR. I have never had good luck with the 68gr BH load, and like Mickster have noted right or left of "othere ammo" groups as well as poor accuracy. How bad you ask?? Last batch I tried was out of same JP rifle, slightly over 8" groups at 200yds. This freaked my brother out and he thought something was completely "trashed" in the good old JP. I just laughed and borrowed a few WWQ3131As from Pacman and shot a nice 1.25" group to show him it was the ammo. KURTM

[KAL]

It seems to me that everyone is going with the Sierra bullet. So I maybe in for a change of Bullet head.

Mickster I know this topic was started on the Hornady 68 Hpbt, and I have a bunch of them also, But it seems that a good powder for that head is going to be hard to find, I think I will give the 2230-c a try. If not it seems that it will also work with the Smk heads fine.

[George]

In the AA load data book, 2460 and 2520 seem to be the best choices for a 68-69 in .223.

The 2460 looks to be a little faster and probably won’t work as well as 2520 under bullets heavier then 68-69 grains. Both look like good choices for fast .223 work under the mid-weight bullets though.

I use 2520 under the SMK 77 and the SMK 80 for NRA High Power work. It shoots half MOA for me. It is temp sensitive though, which is why Varget is still my IPSC ammo powder choice.

BTW, I tried the Hornady 68 as a High Power bullet back in the late eighties and it shot equal to the SMK 69 in my 1:7 barrel , but shot like shit in my 1:9 bbl back then. Haven’t tried them since.

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Regards,

[ktyler]

Another powder you might try is Ramshot TAC. I have been using it for 2 years now and love it. Getting sub MOA at 100, 200 and 300 yards using 68 gr match bullets through my 20" JP.

The powder meters really well on my Dillon. If you want the load work up let me know and I'll see if I can unbury it form the bench.

Ktyler

[3GunF1Guy]

The Black Hills blue box Hornady 68g hpbt are loaded with Ramshot Tac. Just get some tac and you can reload all the "Black Hills" ammo you want. All of the blue box Horn 68g hpbt that I have shot is Lake City brass.

Scott Peterson

[Run n Gun]

At Ramshot they have loading data online.

Basically with the Hornady 68 HPBT, Win brass, CCI 400 primer it's 24.7-25.5 grains with 2934-3015 fps.

Keith,

How's Tac for temperature sensitivity? I don't think it matters much shooting here in western Orygun, but it might matter a whole lot if we go somewhere really HOT! Sometimes 748 can be a little scary.

Ed

[ktyler]

ED

I haven't shot much out of the western WA/OR area with the load so I am not sure about temp. At the low temps it has been working well. Haven't tried the hot stuff yet.

Ktyler

[KAL]

How big are the grains on the Ram shot Tac?? Is it a ball powder or a stick powder like Varget. Just want to make sure I can get 25 grains in the case if need be, But I guess if Black Hills is doing it it should not be a problem.

[Mickster]

Mucho Gracias Scott!

I've gone through over 200 rounds of the BH 68's and several trips to the range to finally arrive at almost perfect zeros for targets from 50 to 350 yards. It's a bit pricey for me to R&D like this but necessary. I also have my 55's shooting an inch higher than the 68's at 200 with the same windage.

Soooooo now, I'll be able to use the handloaded 68's for the long range stuff and the 55's at the closer (150 and in) targets.... and do it all on the cheap.

Thank you for your insight gentlemen.

[3GunF1Guy]

Ramshot Tac is ball powder with small, large and flattened balls all mixed up together. Living in Utah with zero degrees in the winter and up to over 100 in the summer the heat and cold has no effect on it from what I can tell. And It is one of the least expensive powders to shoot, except that military pulled powder.

Scott Peterson

[KAL]

Thanks for your input Scott, I will definately give it a try. Just trying find some place to get a pound to try before I order it in. Want to make sure it fits the bill before getting too much.

[Mickster]

Thanks ktyler.

I just went out and got a pound of Tac. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I'd be very intersted in your load workup using the Tac and the 68bthp.

[3GunF1Guy]

I just pulled apart a Black Hills 68gr hpbt Hornady to see how much Tac they loaded in their ammo. They are using Lake City brass and 23.6 grains of tac at a speed of 2900 fps as it says on the box but when I crono them I only get 2774 fps I shot 10 rounds over my CED crono at about 10 feet. High was 2839. Low was 2694. This was out of my JP 20" heavy barrel ar-15.