PE or FTDR?

[Rangerdug]

Really? Slip up and say something FTDR worthy? Chances are that if he knew what he was doing was basically an FTDR do you honestly think he would "slip up" and say something FTDR worthy? At the end of the day its still a game he didn't do anything unsafe and the advantage gained was probably still minimal; but not the right thing to do if it was purpose.

Really. You have to weigh the options here. 1. Can you prove and enunciate clearly that he gained a competitive advantage? 2. Is the time taken to delay the match and stick it to the offending shooter worthy of the infraction? 3. Are you going to be supported on the higher level and is it worthy of their time spent?

You would be surprised at how smart and how stupid cheaters can be. For example a young man from NC made GM in open at 2009 VA/MD SECTIONAL(USPSA) because his uncle cheated on his behalf and pasted a target downrange before it could be scored. 95% of TJ because he got a reshoot on a stage that he had a clearly visible (to the spectators) hard cover miss on.

With electronic hearing protection you can usually pick up fools planning loudly, but sometimes you get lucky with an arrogant shooter saying, "Who cares it was worth it," after a stage.

The rules for giving the FTDR leave two big problems however:

It should not be assessed for

inadvertent shooter errors, or in cases where it is obvious that the shooter gained no competitive advantage

by their actions. In these cases, the shooter should be assessed a PE rather than an FTDR.<----Shooter says, "Eww shoot sorry, did not mean to do that." And then walks away after burning down the stage ➕ three seconds.

All FTDRs must be approved by the MD.<---Now I have to stop my stage to go plead my case to give this jackwagon a penalty and leave the other twenty shooters in the squad sun tanning?

Try this on for size if it is too much to let go: "I am sorry to inform you that you have been disqualified for violation of the shooter's code of conduct, rule 3.19.7. Please refer any questions to the CSO and MD and have a safe day." I have the authority to do that on the spot and it doesn't take me away from the stage. He willfully broke the rule so I have grounds to DQ. It shifts the burden of time and legwork to the shooter completely as he is now trying to get back into the match and I am free to run my stage. If it bounces back from them, it will likely end up a FTDR, but you have made the offending shooter do the legwork and thoroughly offset any competitive advantage gained.

Seriously this is problem with IDPA. We have rule monkeys, that rather then promote the sport, are more concerned with kicking people out of a match for what? Because he thought outside the box. You give shooter his left and right limits and let him figure out how to negotiate the course of fire.

[rowdyb]

any video of someone shooting teh stage?

[Jim Watson]

I think a PE for failure to follow CoF instructions would be appropriate.

Face it, the shooter has demonstrated that he was smarter than the writer who thought he was being cute with a gimmick stage. As long as he doesn't brag about beating the system, he wins.

I think we need to get over some of this constant quest for novelty with mind games and trick stages. We can have challenging SHOOTING with different problems from stage to stage and match to match without setups that are hard to officiate.

[9x45]

Seriously this is problem with IDPA. We have rule monkeys, that rather then promote the sport, are more concerned with kicking people out of a match for what? Because he thought outside the box. You give shooter his left and right limits and let him figure out how to negotiate the course of fire.

Completely agree, just like USPSA. So much drama in IDPA these days, how big was the rock on the prize table for that match?

[rowdyb]

Remember when we could legally shoot a stage with a texas star in idpa?

"Cute" or "clever" stages are often a poor stage. Just the same as people who are "officious" aren't really the people I want running me on a stage.

These types of things have lead me to really adopt a mindset and stage plan where nothing I do is left to human judgement of someone else. It is clear cut. Never leave it to someone else to judge, invariably you'll get screwed.

[Thomas H]

These types of things have lead me to really adopt a mindset and stage plan where nothing I do is left to human judgement of someone else. It is clear cut. Never leave it to someone else to judge, invariably you'll get screwed.

If not immediately, then at least eventually.

Agreed.

(Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out. But trying to do the above makes it at least less likely you'll be tagged due to someone's subjective opinion about what they think "the sport is about.")

[rowdyb]

IDPA is a game, play it.

[racknrider]

IDPA is a game, play it.

Exactly. Follow the rules and play the game. And don't get butt hurt if someone plays the game differently than you.

[9x45]

A Gamer is not a cheater, they are just someone who completely understands every minutia of the rules and takes it right to the razors edge. After all, it's scored and timed, with divisions and classifications, it must be a game. If not, it would be pass/fail, like qualification for duty or CCW.

[freeidaho]

These types of things have lead me to really adopt a mindset and stage plan where nothing I do is left to human judgement of someone else. It is clear cut. Never leave it to someone else to judge, invariably you'll get screwed.

Rowdy,

You have joined the ranks of the highest MAs and DMs.

Those that choose to dance on the edge of a cliff, sometimes fall off. Staying back from the edge is a better long term strategy.

Edited December 21, 2015 by freeidaho

[racknrider]

These types of things have lead me to really adopt a mindset and stage plan where nothing I do is left to human judgement of someone else. It is clear cut. Never leave it to someone else to judge, invariably you'll get screwed.

Rowdy,

You have joined the ranks of the highest MAs and DMs.

Those that choose to dance on the edge of a cliff, sometimes fall off. Staying back from the edge is a better long term strategy.

And don't run hard or shoot fast because this is a game but you shouldn't really be trying to win. If we could all just learn to perform at exactly the same level then we would all be in first place and could take home our participation trophies.

[freeidaho]

Congratulations, you completely missed the point of Rowdy's and my post.

If you have followed Rowdy's shooting rise, you note he has sought out consistent great preformances rather than hero and then zero.

Hero and then zero is easy. Consistent great performances is much harder.

Edited December 21, 2015 by freeidaho

[Rangerdug]

Congratulations, you completely missed the point of Rowdy's and my post.

If you have followed Rowdy's shooting rise, you note he has sought out consistent great preformances rather than hero and then zero.

Hero and then zero is easy. Consistent great performances is much harder.

Consistency is another term for loser... You have to push yourself to your limits, or how will you truly know what your limits are. Especially in local matches, or why compete. Take up Bulls Eye shooting if you want consistency.

[racknrider]

Congratulations, you completely missed the point of Rowdy's and my post.

If you have followed Rowdy's shooting rise, you note he has sought out consistent great preformances rather than hero and then zero.

Hero and then zero is easy. Consistent great performances is much harder.

You are correct. I do not know Rowdy personally, but he seems like to much of a competitor to be satisfied running at 90%.

I think we need to accept that different approaches to this sport are equally viable. If a guy wants to shoot and practice with his carry gear, that's ok. Wanna have fun with you buds, that's ok too. Wanna push yourself to the limit, well that's ok too.

If shooters and gun owners in general would quit all the back biting we'd all be better off.

[rowdyb]

Congratulations, you completely missed the point of Rowdy's and my post.

If you have followed Rowdy's shooting rise, you note he has sought out consistent great preformances rather than hero and then zero.

Hero and then zero is easy. Consistent great performances is much harder.

Consistency is another term for loser... You have to push yourself to your limits, or how will you truly know what your limits are. Especially in local matches, or why compete. Take up Bulls Eye shooting if you want consistency.

I like to push myself very hard in training. The range is what I like to call my laboratory. That is where I can experiment and fail/learn. So I do agree with your second sentence and it is something I see in people at a certain plateau in there shooting. They are only willing to do something to where they can guarantee a -0 hit. If that's all you do, that's all you'll probably get. (while acknowledging that speed can not be forced. speed is gained in repetition, consistency, confidence and efficiency) I do not practice or train in my comfort zone.

Your third sentence speaks to matches. Competition. And your first sentence about consistency and losing. There is a continuum my skill level lives on at any given day from ok to awesome. If score is being kept I absolutely do not shoot my 100% nor do I push my limits in competition. I prefer to shoot at whatever is 95% of my best at matches on average. So yeah, I'd be unhappy running 90, but I'd love to be at 95% all the time in a match! (Per racknrider above)

From locals to regionals to state wide to nationals to worlds I've looked at the data of the people I beat or who beat me. The winner of the division or even down at the class level almost always falls into one of two categories. 1:They beat everyone, every stage. This does happen but not as often as number two. 2. They finish second or third every stage. They are not first, 12th, first, 8th, 1st, 14th, third. The type of consistent performance to finish at 2nd or 3rd each and every time to come out the overall winner does not happen when you are going all out, pushing yourself, shooting each stage at 100%. It just doesn't.

There might be some language confusion by what each of us mean by saying "go all out", "try my hardest", "go as fast as I can", or "give it 100%." These might mean very different things to me than you and in different circumstances.There is a level of subtlety to my actions, visions, planning and performance of all of this that is hidden in these kinds of statements.

And now to maybe clarify my statement that kinda brought all this out. (btw, i am more than happy to pm about any of this as well) I make an effort not to shoot near scoring lines, I don't want someone to make that judgement call. At the walk through I do not move my foot 1/4" at a time asking, "is this in cover, is this in cover, is this still in cover?" I shoot where I know I am in cover. Are my splits and transitions fast? Yes. But a human being isn't judging me on those actions. Any action or procedure I do in a stage I make a conscious effort to do it such that no one can make an issue about it. Being on that thin end is not the place to be all the time. You get doubles called as mikes. You get cover calls. You get procedurals. You don't help yourself. Don't choose actions such that another can judge them is what I meant, as you probably won't be happy with the judging. And in IDPA you get judged by another person on where your bullet holes are, where your feet and lower body are and how you navigate the stage.

You help yourself by having a good, coherent stage plan you can completely visualize before you shoot. You help yourself by having the fundamentals perfected. You help yourself by developing the skill to shoot things quickly at distance. To shoot an array activator-static-static-mover. You help by how you get in and out of positions. And to do these at your 90-95%, over and over again.

The best definition for good competition shooting I ever heard, was from Bill Go and he described it to me as." Good shooting is executing the fundamentals, perfectly, every time, at speed and under conditions not of your choosing."

I know I wrote quite a bit here and to more than one poster's statements. If you have a question or want me to just flesh out some of these statements please ask, I gladly will in pm or publicly.

[Rangerdug]

Congratulations, you completely missed the point of Rowdy's and my post.

If you have followed Rowdy's shooting rise, you note he has sought out consistent great preformances rather than hero and then zero.

Hero and then zero is easy. Consistent great performances is much harder.

Consistency is another term for loser... You have to push yourself to your limits, or how will you truly know what your limits are. Especially in local matches, or why compete. Take up Bulls Eye shooting if you want consistency.

I like to push myself very hard in training. The range is what I like to call my laboratory. That is where I can experiment and fail/learn. So I do agree with your second sentence and it is something I see in people at a certain plateau in there shooting. They are only willing to do something to where they can guarantee a -0 hit. If that's all you do, that's all you'll probably get. (while acknowledging that speed can not be forced. speed is gained in repetition, consistency, confidence and efficiency) I do not practice or train in my comfort zone.

Your third sentence speaks to matches. Competition. And your first sentence about consistency and losing. There is a continuum my skill level lives on at any given day from ok to awesome. If score is being kept I absolutely do not shoot my 100% nor do I push my limits in competition. I prefer to shoot at whatever is 95% of my best at matches on average. So yeah, I'd be unhappy running 90, but I'd love to be at 95% all the time in a match! (Per racknrider above)

From locals to regionals to state wide to nationals to worlds I've looked at the data of the people I beat or who beat me. The winner of the division or even down at the class level almost always falls into one of two categories. 1:They beat everyone, every stage. This does happen but not as often as number two. 2. They finish second or third every stage. They are not first, 12th, first, 8th, 1st, 14th, third. The type of consistent performance to finish at 2nd or 3rd each and every time to come out the overall winner does not happen when you are going all out, pushing yourself, shooting each stage at 100%. It just doesn't.

There might be some language confusion by what each of us mean by saying "go all out", "try my hardest", "go as fast as I can", or "give it 100%." These might mean very different things to me than you and in different circumstances.There is a level of subtlety to my actions, visions, planning and performance of all of this that is hidden in these kinds of statements.

And now to maybe clarify my statement that kinda brought all this out. (btw, i am more than happy to pm about any of this as well) I make an effort not to shoot near scoring lines, I don't want someone to make that judgement call. At the walk through I do not move my foot 1/4" at a time asking, "is this in cover, is this in cover, is this still in cover?" I shoot where I know I am in cover. Are my splits and transitions fast? Yes. But a human being isn't judging me on those actions. Any action or procedure I do in a stage I make a conscious effort to do it such that no one can make an issue about it. Being on that thin end is not the place to be all the time. You get doubles called as mikes. You get cover calls. You get procedurals. You don't help yourself. Don't choose actions such that another can judge them is what I meant, as you probably won't be happy with the judging. And in IDPA you get judged by another person on where your bullet holes are, where your feet and lower body are and how you navigate the stage.

You help yourself by having a good, coherent stage plan you can completely visualize before you shoot. You help yourself by having the fundamentals perfected. You help yourself by developing the skill to shoot things quickly at distance. To shoot an array activator-static-static-mover. You help by how you get in and out of positions. And to do these at your 90-95%, over and over again.

The best definition for good competition shooting I ever heard, was from Bill Go and he described it to me as." Good shooting is executing the fundamentals, perfectly, every time, at speed and under conditions not of your choosing."

I know I wrote quite a bit here and to more than one poster's statements. If you have a question or want me to just flesh out some of these statements please ask, I gladly will in pm or publicly.

I stand by my statement... But If I understand what you were trying to capture in all that (I have some attention deficits).I believe in the shooter solution approach. That states you shoot as fast as you can accurately engage that. It is 100% effort all the time, that is different from the speed I may engage the targets. Keep in mind that doesn't mean reckless.

[BillR1]

Congratulations, you completely missed the point of Rowdy's and my post.

If you have followed Rowdy's shooting rise, you note he has sought out consistent great preformances rather than hero and then zero.

Hero and then zero is easy. Consistent great performances is much harder.

Consistency is another term for loser... You have to push yourself to your limits, or how will you truly know what your limits are. Especially in local matches, or why compete. Take up Bulls Eye shooting if you want consistency.

I like to push myself very hard in training. The range is what I like to call my laboratory. That is where I can experiment and fail/learn. So I do agree with your second sentence and it is something I see in people at a certain plateau in there shooting. They are only willing to do something to where they can guarantee a -0 hit. If that's all you do, that's all you'll probably get. (while acknowledging that speed can not be forced. speed is gained in repetition, consistency, confidence and efficiency) I do not practice or train in my comfort zone.

Your third sentence speaks to matches. Competition. And your first sentence about consistency and losing. There is a continuum my skill level lives on at any given day from ok to awesome. If score is being kept I absolutely do not shoot my 100% nor do I push my limits in competition. I prefer to shoot at whatever is 95% of my best at matches on average. So yeah, I'd be unhappy running 90, but I'd love to be at 95% all the time in a match! (Per racknrider above)

From locals to regionals to state wide to nationals to worlds I've looked at the data of the people I beat or who beat me. The winner of the division or even down at the class level almost always falls into one of two categories. 1:They beat everyone, every stage. This does happen but not as often as number two. 2. They finish second or third every stage. They are not first, 12th, first, 8th, 1st, 14th, third. The type of consistent performance to finish at 2nd or 3rd each and every time to come out the overall winner does not happen when you are going all out, pushing yourself, shooting each stage at 100%. It just doesn't.

There might be some language confusion by what each of us mean by saying "go all out", "try my hardest", "go as fast as I can", or "give it 100%." These might mean very different things to me than you and in different circumstances.There is a level of subtlety to my actions, visions, planning and performance of all of this that is hidden in these kinds of statements.

And now to maybe clarify my statement that kinda brought all this out. (btw, i am more than happy to pm about any of this as well) I make an effort not to shoot near scoring lines, I don't want someone to make that judgement call. At the walk through I do not move my foot 1/4" at a time asking, "is this in cover, is this in cover, is this still in cover?" I shoot where I know I am in cover. Are my splits and transitions fast? Yes. But a human being isn't judging me on those actions. Any action or procedure I do in a stage I make a conscious effort to do it such that no one can make an issue about it. Being on that thin end is not the place to be all the time. You get doubles called as mikes. You get cover calls. You get procedurals. You don't help yourself. Don't choose actions such that another can judge them is what I meant, as you probably won't be happy with the judging. And in IDPA you get judged by another person on where your bullet holes are, where your feet and lower body are and how you navigate the stage.

You help yourself by having a good, coherent stage plan you can completely visualize before you shoot. You help yourself by having the fundamentals perfected. You help yourself by developing the skill to shoot things quickly at distance. To shoot an array activator-static-static-mover. You help by how you get in and out of positions. And to do these at your 90-95%, over and over again.

The best definition for good competition shooting I ever heard, was from Bill Go and he described it to me as." Good shooting is executing the fundamentals, perfectly, every time, at speed and under conditions not of your choosing."

I know I wrote quite a bit here and to more than one poster's statements. If you have a question or want me to just flesh out some of these statements please ask, I gladly will in pm or publicly.

Congratulations, you completely missed the point of Rowdy's and my post.

If you have followed Rowdy's shooting rise, you note he has sought out consistent great preformances rather than hero and then zero.

Hero and then zero is easy. Consistent great performances is much harder.

Consistency is another term for loser... You have to push yourself to your limits, or how will you truly know what your limits are. Especially in local matches, or why compete. Take up Bulls Eye shooting if you want consistency.

I like to push myself very hard in training. The range is what I like to call my laboratory. That is where I can experiment and fail/learn. So I do agree with your second sentence and it is something I see in people at a certain plateau in there shooting. They are only willing to do something to where they can guarantee a -0 hit. If that's all you do, that's all you'll probably get. (while acknowledging that speed can not be forced. speed is gained in repetition, consistency, confidence and efficiency) I do not practice or train in my comfort zone.

Your third sentence speaks to matches. Competition. And your first sentence about consistency and losing. There is a continuum my skill level lives on at any given day from ok to awesome. If score is being kept I absolutely do not shoot my 100% nor do I push my limits in competition. I prefer to shoot at whatever is 95% of my best at matches on average. So yeah, I'd be unhappy running 90, but I'd love to be at 95% all the time in a match! (Per racknrider above)

From locals to regionals to state wide to nationals to worlds I've looked at the data of the people I beat or who beat me. The winner of the division or even down at the class level almost always falls into one of two categories. 1:They beat everyone, every stage. This does happen but not as often as number two. 2. They finish second or third every stage. They are not first, 12th, first, 8th, 1st, 14th, third. The type of consistent performance to finish at 2nd or 3rd each and every time to come out the overall winner does not happen when you are going all out, pushing yourself, shooting each stage at 100%. It just doesn't.

There might be some language confusion by what each of us mean by saying "go all out", "try my hardest", "go as fast as I can", or "give it 100%." These might mean very different things to me than you and in different circumstances.There is a level of subtlety to my actions, visions, planning and performance of all of this that is hidden in these kinds of statements.

And now to maybe clarify my statement that kinda brought all this out. (btw, i am more than happy to pm about any of this as well) I make an effort not to shoot near scoring lines, I don't want someone to make that judgement call. At the walk through I do not move my foot 1/4" at a time asking, "is this in cover, is this in cover, is this still in cover?" I shoot where I know I am in cover. Are my splits and transitions fast? Yes. But a human being isn't judging me on those actions. Any action or procedure I do in a stage I make a conscious effort to do it such that no one can make an issue about it. Being on that thin end is not the place to be all the time. You get doubles called as mikes. You get cover calls. You get procedurals. You don't help yourself. Don't choose actions such that another can judge them is what I meant, as you probably won't be happy with the judging. And in IDPA you get judged by another person on where your bullet holes are, where your feet and lower body are and how you navigate the stage.

You help yourself by having a good, coherent stage plan you can completely visualize before you shoot. You help yourself by having the fundamentals perfected. You help yourself by developing the skill to shoot things quickly at distance. To shoot an array activator-static-static-mover. You help by how you get in and out of positions. And to do these at your 90-95%, over and over again.

The best definition for good competition shooting I ever heard, was from Bill Go and he described it to me as." Good shooting is executing the fundamentals, perfectly, every time, at speed and under conditions not of your choosing."

I know I wrote quite a bit here and to more than one poster's statements. If you have a question or want me to just flesh out some of these statements please ask, I gladly will in pm or publicly.

Great stuff Rowdy!

[Thomas H]

Consistency is another term for loser...

Demonstrably factually untrue, as many national championships show.

You have to push yourself to your limits, or how will you truly know what your limits are. Especially in local matches, or why compete.

Because as Rowdy said, training and testing are two different things.

Take up Bulls Eye shooting if you want consistency.

Or do well enough to consistently win matches.

It interests me to read this set of comments from folks, regarding Rowdy's training methodology. Not only has it worked for him (since he is MA in two divisions and did well at the 2015 IDPA Worlds), but it is also something that many high-level shooters understand. Running hero-or-zero in a match means that periodically you zero. Which means you lose, at high levels. You simply can't afford to bomb a stage against good competition. Consistently running at the maximum of your consistent capability level, however, means you have much better chance of succeeding.

This, of course, is separate from what you do when TRAINING, which is all about increasing your consistent capability level. People who confuse the two often lose matches.