PE or FTDR?

[ES13Raven]

Scenario:

Standards type stage, where the shooter does not move and shoots all targets from the same position. There are 9 targets that the shooter has to engage in tactical priority (near to far), and they are setup in arrays like this: 2, 4, 2 1.

Correct engagement would have the shooter switching back and forth from right to left (or vice versa), to shoot them near to far.

An experienced shooter gets to the line, and decides he can shoot it faster by engaging all targets left to right and taking the PE.

FTDR worthy?

Edited March 24, 2015 by ES13Raven

[kfd147]

10 targets or 9 targets? Also, Prove he didn't make a mistake and just decide to shoot it like that since he was going to get a PE for out of order shooting anyway. Unless he told a SO that he was going to do it, how do you enforce that?

Jason

[ES13Raven]

10 targets or 9 targets? Also, Prove he didn't make a mistake and just decide to shoot it like that since he was going to get a PE for out of order shooting anyway. Unless he told a SO that he was going to do it, how do you enforce that?

Jason

Sorry - 9 targets. I will edit the original post.

The experienced shooter knows tactical priority very well, and purposely shoots them out of order to get a better time including the 3 second PE.

The FTDR rule states: "The FTDR is intended to be used solely as a penalty for deliberate attempts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the competition rules to gain a competitive advantage."

[bikerburgess]

How do you KNOW the shooter didn't have a brain fart?

I've watch a shooter/ SO explain the stage to everyone then go up and screw up priority vs sequence, I am pretty sure he didn't do it on purpose because in this case it killed his score.

[kfd147]

Again, How do you prove he purposely shot them out of order. Does he admit to it? Then, yes a FTDR is appropriate. If he denies or states that he messed it up and continued to shoot it out of order, then he just gets the procedural. Will his integrity be in question if it looks shady? Most definitely. Will everyone know to watch him very closely from that point on? Yes. Not just that match, but others that have seen or heard about it. This has happened to me and I racked my brain and the rule book to give the shooter a FTDR. But it comes right down to evidence. You do not know what is going on in the shooters mind. Unless you have hard proof, you have to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

Jason

[motosapiens]

I haven't shot much IDPA lately, but can you really only give one procedural? I would tend to give one for EACH transition that was not in tactical priority, so probably 8 or so. Don't care if it's a brainfart or intentional.

[v1911]

From your post, it would appear the seasoned shooter chose to shoot out of order intentionally as an advantage. Did anyone ask him why he shot in the order that he did? Did he realize before hand what the proper order was? Did he time actually reflect any advantage?

[kfd147]

I haven't shot much IDPA lately, but can you really only give one procedural? I would tend to give one for EACH transition that was not in tactical priority, so probably 8 or so. Don't care if it's a brainfart or intentional.

Nope, just one PE per action and / or position.

2015 Rules V 1.1

5.1 Procedural Error (PE)

5.1.1 Adds three (3) seconds per infraction and is assessed when:

5.1.1.1 A shooter fails to follow the procedures set forth in the stage description.

5.1.1.2 A shooter breaks a rule of the game.

5.1.2 Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire. If the shooter commits more than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand and firing an incorrect number of shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction. There are several exceptions to the “one PE per infraction” rule.

5.1.3 Cover violations: a shooter may incur more than one cover PE per string of fire. The number of cover PE’s cannot exceed the number of cover positions. Regardless of the number of rounds fired or targets engaged from any position, only 1 cover PE may be assessed at each position.

Jason

Edited March 24, 2015 by kfd147

[ES13Raven]

From your post, it would appear the seasoned shooter chose to shoot out of order intentionally as an advantage. Did anyone ask him why he shot in the order that he did? Did he realize before hand what the proper order was? Did he time actually reflect any advantage?

This is a hypothetical. The shooter did gain an advantage, even with the 3 second penalty. There are vision barriers in front of most targets. Shooters have several transitions left to right, and have to lean out to make the shots.

Shooting the stage without priority is definitely quicker.

[hangin]

Well it is still hard to be positive he did it with the intention to gain a competitive advantage or just forgot the sequence. I think it all comes down to the level of the match, and the clarity of the stage brief and what does "experienced shooter" mean? There is a thread in one of the sub-forums here that asks " do pro's have bad days or stages" the "pro's" who chimed in agreed that yes, shooters at the highest levels have bad days. Maybe it was his bad day. In a local match where there is not much to win people tend to pay less attention to the stage and more attention to the shooters around them, jaw jacking. In doing so they come to the line and to save face or out of true ignorance of the stage description when asked "if they understand" they just reply "yes" and screw it up.

[ES13Raven]

So basically, unless the shooter says it was on purpose - PE only?

[bikerburgess]

New tool for the SO, Ouija board so they can divine shooter intention.

[hangin]

So basically, unless the shooter says it was on purpose - PE only?

Pretty much yes, PE only. You have to be able to prove that the action taken was with the intention to gain a competitive advantage, or with a lack of sportsmanship.

Edited March 24, 2015 by hangin

[v1911]

Well it is still hard to be positive he did it with the intention to gain a competitive advantage or just forgot the sequence. I think it all comes down to the level of the match, and the clarity of the stage brief and what does "experienced shooter" mean? There is a thread in one of the sub-forums here that asks " do pro's have bad days or stages" the "pro's" who chimed in agreed that yes, shooters at the highest levels have bad days. Maybe it was his bad day. In a local match where there is not much to win people tend to pay less attention to the stage and more attention to the shooters around them, jaw jacking. In doing so they come to the line and to save face or out of true ignorance of the stage description when asked "if they understand" they just reply "yes" and screw it up.

A bad day would imply that stages were fudged and resulted in poor times. This wasn't that.

[hangin]

Well it is still hard to be positive he did it with the intention to gain a competitive advantage or just forgot the sequence. I think it all comes down to the level of the match, and the clarity of the stage brief and what does "experienced shooter" mean? There is a thread in one of the sub-forums here that asks " do pro's have bad days or stages" the "pro's" who chimed in agreed that yes, shooters at the highest levels have bad days. Maybe it was his bad day. In a local match where there is not much to win people tend to pay less attention to the stage and more attention to the shooters around them, jaw jacking. In doing so they come to the line and to save face or out of true ignorance of the stage description when asked "if they understand" they just reply "yes" and screw it up.

A bad day would imply that stages were fudged and resulted in poor times. This wasn't that.

I wasn't there so I cant say what is was or wasn't. All I can say is that the rule book makes it pretty had to give a FTDR anyway and on top of that you still have to go through the MD in order to do so. I'm just saying unless your positive that it wasn't an accident he can only be charged with a PE.

[bikerburgess]

Well it is still hard to be positive he did it with the intention to gain a competitive advantage or just forgot the sequence. I think it all comes down to the level of the match, and the clarity of the stage brief and what does "experienced shooter" mean? There is a thread in one of the sub-forums here that asks " do pro's have bad days or stages" the "pro's" who chimed in agreed that yes, shooters at the highest levels have bad days. Maybe it was his bad day. In a local match where there is not much to win people tend to pay less attention to the stage and more attention to the shooters around them, jaw jacking. In doing so they come to the line and to save face or out of true ignorance of the stage description when asked "if they understand" they just reply "yes" and screw it up.

A bad day would imply that stages were fudged and resulted in poor times. This wasn't that.

So if a lower level shooter came to the line and made the same error and it also turned out to be advantageous would you argue for a FTDR? If not how do you know the master was on his A game and the marksman was not trying to game it?

[v1911]

I'm not arguing for or against the FTDR. I'm just saying that if you f' up a stage but still result in a better time than you normally would, I wouldn't refer to it as a bad stage.

[bikerburgess]

I would say its a artifact of the rules we have. just like if you hear a cover call as you fire the first shot at a point of cover once I know I have the PE I don't adjust my postilion before the next shot.

[ac4wordplay]

How do you KNOW the shooter didn't have a brain fart?

I've watch a shooter/ SO explain the stage to everyone then go up and screw up priority vs sequence, I am pretty sure he didn't do it on purpose because in this case it killed his score.

Who is this bozo you speak of?

[bikerburgess]

How do you KNOW the shooter didn't have a brain fart?

I've watch a shooter/ SO explain the stage to everyone then go up and screw up priority vs sequence, I am pretty sure he didn't do it on purpose because in this case it killed his score.

Who is this bozo you speak of?

I'm not sure, he could be fictitious

[ac4wordplay]

How do you KNOW the shooter didn't have a brain fart?

I've watch a shooter/ SO explain the stage to everyone then go up and screw up priority vs sequence, I am pretty sure he didn't do it on purpose because in this case it killed his score.

Who is this bozo you speak of?

I'm not sure, he could be fictitious

I expect that you were referring to me (I seem to remember such an event in bay 3, sometime last year).

I'm surprised that you're bored enough that you're here in the IDPA area.

[bikerburgess]

Work has been slow

[Forrest Halley]

FTDR...difficult to make stick, almost as difficult to prove as the round dumping of old. PE is a lot less subjective and if you were so inclined you could 'splain to the shooter why he got a PE in hopes he would slip up and say something to earn a FTDR. It appears so very muckraking a process to actually make it stick. A real life game of tattle tale.

[hangin]

FTDR...difficult to make stick, almost as difficult to prove as the round dumping of old. PE is a lot less subjective and if you were so inclined you could 'splain to the shooter why he got a PE in hopes he would slip up and say something to earn a FTDR. It appears so very muckraking a process to actually make it stick. A real life game of tattle tale.

Really? Slip up and say something FTDR worthy? Chances are that if he knew what he was doing was basically an FTDR do you honestly think he would "slip up" and say something FTDR worthy? At the end of the day its still a game he didn't do anything unsafe and the advantage gained was probably still minimal; but not the right thing to do if it was purpose.

[Forrest Halley]

Really? Slip up and say something FTDR worthy? Chances are that if he knew what he was doing was basically an FTDR do you honestly think he would "slip up" and say something FTDR worthy? At the end of the day its still a game he didn't do anything unsafe and the advantage gained was probably still minimal; but not the right thing to do if it was purpose.

Really. You have to weigh the options here. 1. Can you prove and enunciate clearly that he gained a competitive advantage? 2. Is the time taken to delay the match and stick it to the offending shooter worthy of the infraction? 3. Are you going to be supported on the higher level and is it worthy of their time spent?

You would be surprised at how smart and how stupid cheaters can be. For example a young man from NC made GM in open at 2009 VA/MD SECTIONAL(USPSA) because his uncle cheated on his behalf and pasted a target downrange before it could be scored. 95% of TJ because he got a reshoot on a stage that he had a clearly visible (to the spectators) hard cover miss on.

With electronic hearing protection you can usually pick up fools planning loudly, but sometimes you get lucky with an arrogant shooter saying, "Who cares it was worth it," after a stage.

The rules for giving the FTDR leave two big problems however:

It should not be assessed for

inadvertent shooter errors, or in cases where it is obvious that the shooter gained no competitive advantage

by their actions. In these cases, the shooter should be assessed a PE rather than an FTDR.<----Shooter says, "Eww shoot sorry, did not mean to do that." And then walks away after burning down the stage ➕ three seconds.

All FTDRs must be approved by the MD.<---Now I have to stop my stage to go plead my case to give this jackwagon a penalty and leave the other twenty shooters in the squad sun tanning?

Try this on for size if it is too much to let go: "I am sorry to inform you that you have been disqualified for violation of the shooter's code of conduct, rule 3.19.7. Please refer any questions to the CSO and MD and have a safe day." I have the authority to do that on the spot and it doesn't take me away from the stage. He willfully broke the rule so I have grounds to DQ. It shifts the burden of time and legwork to the shooter completely as he is now trying to get back into the match and I am free to run my stage. If it bounces back from them, it will likely end up a FTDR, but you have made the offending shooter do the legwork and thoroughly offset any competitive advantage gained.