RadarTech Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 We had an interesting one this weekend... And on reflection, we all got it wrong..... To set the stage: 2 poppers, one activates a drop turner and 1 activates a swinger. of course the drop turner is a disappearing target. Swinger is not a disappearing target. Steel was hit, and did not fall- that is easy-- either a MIKE or a reshoot if it does not calibrate. It appeared to pass the calibration test . Since it did NOT fall, there is an FTE for the Drop Turner! Well per 9.9.3 you get 2 mikes for the drop turner... At the time I didn't think about the drop turner per rule 9.9.3... I read the rule, and other RO's convinced me I was mistaken as this was a disappearing target. First stage- New Shooter, and I was on deck.... Anyone else ever seen this one before? 9.9 Scoring of Moving Targets9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be presented. 9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot. 9.2.4.4 -- Fixed time stages do not incur FTE or miss penalties.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) not sure what you are asking. since the target was not activated, it seems clear to me that it's 2 mikes and an FTE even tho it is 'disappearing'. Most experienced shooters wouldn't take a chance on calibration for a steel activator without putting at least another shot or two on it. Losing calibration in a situation like that is brutal. Edited February 8, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Realistically the only time most ask for calibration is if they notice steel still standing at the end of a run. If you call a miss, you make it up. If you're shooting an array of steel, odds are most shooters notice that one didn't go down -- unless it was the last piece of steel they engaged before departing that position.... If it's an activating popper -- drive it down.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Sometimes -- a kink in the activating mechanism can keep the popper upright/make it harder to shoot down. I prefer to activate movers in other, non-shooting ways (opening a door, opening a port, blowing through a turnstile) over using a popper. Attaching a lever at a 90 degree angle near the bottom of the popper face and running the activation through that (the Ruoff attachment, after one of our local shooters) can help, as the activator line gets pulled through more of an arc as the popper falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Mostly I'm just curious how many have seen this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 What did you guys do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadarTech Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 We didn't give the mikes. But it didn't feel right. And I knew it. But was in a rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 We didn't give the mikes. But it didn't feel right. And I knew it. But was in a rush. Stuff like this happens. Trying your best and making a mistake is nothing compared to some of the shenanigans we see posted here. Thanks for stepping up to help make matches happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I have not seen it happen in a USPSA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Yeah, seen this before and got it wrong myself one time a while back. This sort of sucks that you get those penalties for a disappearing target but you have to remember what the rule is for. You guys had a match this past weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I am not sure I would have even gone to the rule book for that one. Thanks for posting it. Where would you record the two misses with electronic scoring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I am not sure I would have even gone to the rule book for that one. Thanks for posting it. Where would you record the two misses with electronic scoring? Wouldn't the Mike column still be available? The only difference should be that there will be a NPM column available for the disappearing target so you would have a choice of either putting in Mikes or NPM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 No choice in this particular scenario, though. He didn't activate the target (groan...), so they're straight Mikes, and a penalty for FTS. (I definitely see what y'all mean by "hammer that thing down"!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I am not sure I would have even gone to the rule book for that one. Thanks for posting it. Where would you record the two misses with electronic scoring? Wouldn't the Mike column still be available? The only difference should be that there will be a NPM column available for the disappearing target so you would have a choice of either putting in Mikes or NPM. NPM = no point deduction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVShooter Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Situation happened this weekend. Popper activator actives a disappearing target. Shooter shoots at popper and misses. Obviously does not active disappearing target. Shooter decides to skip this mess and goes to next target. Penalties: 1) Miss for popper 2) Failure to shoot at (FTE) procedural penalty 3) 2 Regular misses (not NPM) Is that correct??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Yup, -40... Edited March 2, 2015 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Yeah, that's right. And since he missed the popper, he can't call for calibration either so he was really screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Realistically the only time most ask for calibration is if they notice steel still standing at the end of a run. If you call a miss, you make it up. If you're shooting an array of steel, odds are most shooters notice that one didn't go down -- unless it was the last piece of steel they engaged before departing that position.... If it's an activating popper -- drive it down.... I put a nice little three shot group in the middle of the calibration zone of a full sized popper two days ago. It wasn't activating a paper target but did cover a USP behind it that was not engageable unless the popper was down, and it barely rocked with each shot. I stopped and got a calibration, which went my way. The better strategy was to finish the stage, but I just plain didn't feel like wasting the ammo or my energy. Of course, it didn't hurt that my gun was the official calibration gun for the match, and that the calibration ammo for it was made by me to be between 120 and 125 PF in that gun. (Oh, and don't fret - somebody else did the actual calibration, not me, putting his shot in with my first three, and those were made using my MATCH ammo, which is 133 PF). Edited March 4, 2015 by kevin c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Calibration ammo was a little hot . Should be 115-125. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Realistically the only time most ask for calibration is if they notice steel still standing at the end of a run. If you call a miss, you make it up. If you're shooting an array of steel, odds are most shooters notice that one didn't go down -- unless it was the last piece of steel they engaged before departing that position.... If it's an activating popper -- drive it down.... I put a nice little three shot group in the middle of the calibration zone of a full sized popper two days ago. It wasn't activating a paper target but did cover a USP behind it that was not engageable unless the popper was down, and it barely rocked with each shot. I stopped and got a calibration, which went my way. The better strategy was to finish the stage, but I just plain didn't feel like wasting the ammo or my energy. Of course, it didn't hurt that my gun was the official calibration gun for the match, and that the calibration ammo for it was made by me to be between 120 and 125 PF in that gun. (Oh, and don't fret - somebody else did the actual calibration, not me, putting his shot in with my first three, and those were made using my MATCH ammo, which is 133 PF). There's going to be the exception -- but I've seen similar situations where the popper passes calibration...... Glad it worked out for you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 In most situations, one steel left up is not a huge deal but if you are dealing with an activating popper, you have to be extra sure that you drive it down or be sure you will get the reshoot on calibration. Nik was right on with his statement but there are a few exceptions as noted. I guess I've been lucky - I called for four calibrations last year and won three of them (the forth just barely fell - none were activating poppers). When you are shooting 172PF ammo and it's a good hit, it better go down or something is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Calibration ammo was a little hot . Should be 115-125. No, he stated it was between 120 and 125, which is legal; also note the word "should". Of course, it didn't hurt that my gun was the official calibration gun for the match, and that the calibration ammo for it was made by me to be between 120 and 125 PF in that gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 My bad. I guess reading the rule book is a bad thing. One of these days I'll learn to just wing it like everybody else! lol So using your "should" logic I can use my 9Major to calibrate steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) AD Edited March 7, 2015 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 My bad. I guess reading the rule book is a bad thing. One of these days I'll learn to just wing it like everybody else! lol So using your "should" logic I can use my 9Major to calibrate steel. Really, Kevin? That's the conclusion you jump to after reading that section? That should make your matches popular with production shooters, assuming you calibrate poppers initially with your major ammo...... (For the record I'm confident Kevin has not and would not ever do that.....) Yep, ideally matches/RMs would have a supply of 9x19 ammo that makes 115-125 pf out of their chrono gun. If on the other hand they miss slightly on the production of such a batch, and it comes in at 126, the use of theword should allows for them to utilize that batch.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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