Front Sight Focus with Both Eyes Open

[Cosby]

In the words of the immortal Doc Holliday "I've got two guns, one for each of you"!

[gsis shooter]

This is my problem, im right handed but left eye dominant. I averaged 3 rounds before i can hit the target with both eyes open. Sometimes i saw double vision of the front sight. My friend advised me to frown and focus my sight, it helps a little and i averaged 2 rounds per target. I trained with my left (weak) hand, i can easily hit the target problem is the pistol usually jammed due to limp wrist. Any advice would greatly appreciated.

[Gun Geek]

This is my problem, im right handed but left eye dominant. I averaged 3 rounds before i can hit the target with both eyes open. Sometimes i saw double vision of the front sight. My friend advised me to frown and focus my sight, it helps a little and i averaged 2 rounds per target. I trained with my left (weak) hand, i can easily hit the target problem is the pistol usually jammed due to limp wrist. Any advice would greatly appreciated. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm the same - I'm learning to shoot lefthanded.

Try practicing as a lefty. You will have to actually commit to it. Don't do everything rh then shift over. Dry fire and range work.

[Azone41]

Prior to starting IPSC I was a skeet shooter and the correct way to shoot a shotgun is with both eyes open. When I switched over to IPSC I had trained my eyes to stay open when shooting ( 250,000 rnds ). Now I keep both eyes open all the time. It takes lots of practice but you can do it.

[Mike H]

not to derail this thread further, but ...

I re-watched one of Barnhart's videos last night and he really hammers home the importance of watching the target v. the front sight. He demonstrates this by having the front sight somewhat blurred and the target in focus, with both optics and iron sights.

The standard way for most instruction in the LEO/military environment is basically the reverse of what Barnhart teaches and emphasizes, concentrating on the front sight and keeping the target at a blur.

Does most everyone follow Barnhart's approach in the competitive realm?

[GuildSF4]

not to derail this thread further, but ...

I re-watched one of Barnhart's videos last night and he really hammers home the importance of watching the target v. the front sight.  He demonstrates this by having the front sight somewhat blurred and the target in focus, with both optics and iron sights.

The standard way for most instruction in the LEO/military environment is basically the reverse of what Barnhart teaches and emphasizes, concentrating on the front sight and keeping the target at a blur.

Does most everyone follow Barnhart's approach in the competitive realm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To paraphrase BE, the type of focus depends on how hard the shot is. At close range focus is entirely on the target. Intermediate ranges may be using the slide and not the sights to align the shot. Longer ranges require more focus on the sights.

My eyes can shift dominance so I use either scotch tape, or static cling window tint to tilt the dominance to the right.

[Flexmoney]

Mike H.,

Which tape in the Barhart series was that on? (I'd like to watch it again.)

[Mike H]

Flex,

VOl II, where he speaks about presenting the weapon to the target, before the reload sequence

thx GuildSF4, makes sense, I need to obtain BE's book. What do you consider to be intermediate and long range in terms of actual distance?

[eric nielsen]

Jerry described something similar in an interview with Handgun Quarterly magazine, sometime around 1988.

I believe his eyesight lets him do things that are really helpful for shooting iron sights at paper targets. Things that most people can't do without a lot of training. Or ever.

[GuildSF4]

Flex,

VOl II, where he speaks about presenting the weapon to the target, before the reload sequence

thx GuildSF4, makes sense, I need to obtain BE's book.  What do you consider to be intermediate and long range in terms of actual distance?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brian covers that better in his book. But for me intermideate is about 10-15, long is 25 or further lower A zone. Upper A zone is closer for both.

[hanexp]

This is a facinating thread. I hope it is not yet dead. I find it facinating because I am left eye dominant and right handed. I have had lazer eye corrective surgery with my right eye corrected for close and my left for distance. The surgery is very functional for me for most activities such as reading, computer work, driving, etc. When I began shooting handguns, post eye correction, I found it much more comfortable to focus on the front site using my right eye. Therefore I have trained to shoot right handed and using my left eye to sight. Indeed, sometimes, not always, I squint to ensure a non confusing sight picture. Trouble is I tend to shoot to the left. Not down and left, as when I flinch (yes that happens too, but I can usually recognize that and in that case my shots tend low and left), but otherwise my shots tend to group fairly tightly at 9 o'clock. I have noticed that I can exagerate that tendency, but esentially duplicate it, by shooting strong (right)hand only. If I shoot weak (left) handed only, I tend to shoot fairly tightly to the right. I believe this is because of the index of my shoulders, with my gun raised in front of my right eye. I have been wondering if I were to return to shooting left eye/right handed if my shots will tend to be more centered. Of course there is only one way to find out, and I will try to do that this weekend. i am quite looking forward to what I may learn.

Everyone's thoughts on this thread so far have been evocative and helpful, for me, and any further ideas would be welcome. In any case, this is quite a forum and I am appreciative of all the ideas in this thread.

[rod m1]

What sight setup is best? What color style works best for this technique?

[Damn_Bastard]

Forgive me for weighing in with my relative inexperience, here on the board.

What I've always practised is pointing both eyes at the target, but focussing (pupil, focal plane stuff) on the front sight. It took a lot of work, and evey time I do dry fire drills, I open a curtain just a tad so I can practise sight pictures 20-30 m away (tree in backyard)

I've modified the pics Pierruiggi created, meaning no disrespect to help illustrate what I'm talking about:

I hope I attached this properly. I've never seen this forum software before, except on the IPSC global village, where I've never tried to post a pic.

OK, now rip me to shreds.

Oh, and I am 33 years old and do not wear glasses.

[Flexmoney]

DB, welcome to the forum.

Love the name...any chance your dad's name is Don??

[Damn_Bastard]

DB, welcome to the forum.

Love the name...any chance your dad's name is Don??

No, unfortunately. Marc. Good one though, flex.

My first name is Dan, and my last sounds close enough to Bastard that sooner or later, everyone I know makes the same old tired joke.

[Matt Griffin]

Ok, just to be clear on the eye focus thing:

You're not supposed to actually focus on the front sight with both eyes, correct? You're actually soft-focusing on the target, and PAYING ATTENTION to the front sight image, which is split in parallax because you are not focusing on it.

Is this correct? It seems to be the right thing to do, but Brian clearly says that the order of sharpness is front sight, rear sight, target. I take this to mean that he is soft-focusing from the target far enough back so that his actual point of focus lies closer to him than the target, which would lead to the sharpness levels he indicates. However, I don't think it is proper that you unfocus enough to throw the target into split-image, correct?

H.

[bountyhunter]

Ok, just to be clear on the eye focus thing:

You're not supposed to actually focus on the front sight with both eyes, correct? You're actually soft-focusing on the target, and PAYING ATTENTION to the front sight image, which is split in parallax because you are not focusing on it.

H.

I align the sights along the dominat eye sight line with BOTH eyes focused on the target. You get a "split" image of the gun, one off to the right side and one straight down the sights. The sights are in soft focus, unless you change the lense power in the right eye so you can sharpen the sight image and also have a sharp target image in the left eye with eye musles at relaxed (distance) focus.

If you actually focus both eyes on the front sight, parallax will give a double image of the target and also a double image of the rear sight.

[Matt Griffin]

Ok, just to be clear on the eye focus thing:

You're not supposed to actually focus on the front sight with both eyes, correct? You're actually soft-focusing on the target, and PAYING ATTENTION to the front sight image, which is split in parallax because you are not focusing on it.

H.

I align the sights along the dominat eye sight line with BOTH eyes focused on the target. You get a "split" image of the gun, one off to the right side and one straight down the sights. The sights are in soft focus, unless you change the lense power in the right eye so you can sharpen the sight image and also have a sharp target image in the left eye with eye musles at relaxed (distance) focus.

If you actually focus both eyes on the front sight, parallax will give a double image of the target and also a double image of the rear sight.

Thanks for the clarification, that's what I have always done naturally, but especially since I started shooting precision air pistol, the constant "sights must be in focus!" made me doubt what seemed correct.

H.

[bountyhunter]

Ok, just to be clear on the eye focus thing:

You're not supposed to actually focus on the front sight with both eyes, correct? You're actually soft-focusing on the target, and PAYING ATTENTION to the front sight image, which is split in parallax because you are not focusing on it.

H.

I align the sights along the dominat eye sight line with BOTH eyes focused on the target. You get a "split" image of the gun, one off to the right side and one straight down the sights. The sights are in soft focus, unless you change the lense power in the right eye so you can sharpen the sight image and also have a sharp target image in the left eye with eye musles at relaxed (distance) focus.

If you actually focus both eyes on the front sight, parallax will give a double image of the target and also a double image of the rear sight.

Thanks for the clarification, that's what I have always done naturally, but especially since I started shooting precision air pistol, the constant "sights must be in focus!" made me doubt what seemed correct.

H.

Yeah, I am frequently reminded that it is the wrong way to shoot. But, I shoot much better with two eyes than the one-eyed squint method looking at the front sight.

You definitely have to see the sights, and you must give them total "brain focus" when you align them, but you don't necessarily have to focus your eyes onto the sights to do this.

One trick I would recommend to understand "brain focus" when sighting:

Focus both eyes on a spot on the wall 50 feet away. maintain "eye muscle focus" on that point.

Now, raise your left hand up directly in front of your left eye. Now, yue see the wall clearly and a fuzzy image of the hand at the same time.

Just using mind awareness (don't shift eye focus) you can focus in on either the hand or the spot on the wall. As you focus awareness on the hand, it actually seems to become more solid (denser). It's an illusion, of course, because your brain is just becoming more aware of it.

When the "ghost" sight image is in your sight line and you are seeing it as well as the sharp target image, you can shift brain focus back to the sights without changing eye focus at all.

[Matt Griffin]

Ok, just to be clear on the eye focus thing:

You're not supposed to actually focus on the front sight with both eyes, correct? You're actually soft-focusing on the target, and PAYING ATTENTION to the front sight image, which is split in parallax because you are not focusing on it.

H.

I align the sights along the dominat eye sight line with BOTH eyes focused on the target. You get a "split" image of the gun, one off to the right side and one straight down the sights. The sights are in soft focus, unless you change the lense power in the right eye so you can sharpen the sight image and also have a sharp target image in the left eye with eye musles at relaxed (distance) focus.

If you actually focus both eyes on the front sight, parallax will give a double image of the target and also a double image of the rear sight.

Thanks for the clarification, that's what I have always done naturally, but especially since I started shooting precision air pistol, the constant "sights must be in focus!" made me doubt what seemed correct.

H.

Yeah, I am frequently reminded that it is the wrong way to shoot. But, I shoot much better with two eyes than the one-eyed squint method looking at the front sight.

You definitely have to see the sights, and you must give them total "brain focus" when you align them, but you don't necessarily have to focus your eyes onto the sights to do this.

One trick I would recommend to understand "brain focus" when sighting:

Focus both eyes on a spot on the wall 50 feet away. maintain "eye muscle focus" on that point.

Now, raise your left hand up directly in front of your left eye. Now, yue see the wall clearly and a fuzzy image of the hand at the same time.

Just using mind awareness (don't shift eye focus) you can focus in on either the hand or the spot on the wall. As you focus awareness on the hand, it actually seems to become more solid (denser). It's an illusion, of course, because your brain is just becoming more aware of it.

When the "ghost" sight image is in your sight line and you are seeing it as well as the sharp target image, you can shift brain focus back to the sights without changing eye focus at all.

I know exactly what you are talking about. Even though my eye focus never leaves the target, I'll lose track of it while I'm "watching" my sight picture. I don't think squinting would be a good route for me to go, I don't even notice the other image, it's so far off to the side.

H.

[Damn_Bastard]

I feel that an important part of dry fire practise is in fact coding to muscle memory... eye muscle memory... the ability to "point" both eyes at the target, while focussing on the front sight.

for this reason, I dry fire from as far from the target I can practically get, and for a certain amount of time, I practise taking sight pictures high in a handy backyard tree, through carefully cracked window blinds, from far back in the room.

Warning, paragraph two can summon the local SWAT team for an impromptu tactical shooting lesson, if done poorly.

Choose your sight direction wisely, and make sure the gun is clear.

Dry firing at close targets is one thing, dry firing at distant targets is crucial. The change of focal plane w.r.t stereoptic target is counter to, um, billions of years of evolution, so must be trained, trained, trained.

[Derwoodski]

man.....after reading all that......I will still use one eye.

[kevin c]

A lot of people do, including, more than one GM that I know of, at least for shots at any appreciable distance.

I wish some of the eye docs who are members here could chime in. I'm not an ophthalmologist, and my knowledge of the neurology of vision isn't much more than that of an informed layperson, but I'll try to offer a bit of what I understand.

The brain gets two visual inputs, one from each eye (it's actually two from each eye, split and recombined, but that's not important here), and has to combine those into an image we can use. Each eye's image of an object focussed on is different, only minimally so at far distances, but very much so close in. One usable image is made out of the two coming in, partly by the movement of the eyes relative to each other (going cross-eyed, to put the object into each eye's area of maximum sharp vision, where the images combine the best), partly by what the eye focusses on, because blurry images are easier to ignore than a sharp one, and partly by suppressing the image coming out of one eye (the nondominant one). Each technique is not always sucessful.

Going cross-eyed to focus on very close objects reduces the double image on the object being looked at, but almost everything else may look double. The brain can suppress the double image by essentially turning off the image from one eye, even though the eye is still open. If successful, the eye crossing isn't needed, since just one eye is doing the work now. However the suppression mechanism works variably well, with some people, especially with training, being able to see just one image from one eye, but others with a "ghost image", sometimes strong, sometimes not. Because of this people still use the quick and dirty method of getting rid of the double image that any binocular person learns early on - squinting or actually closing one eye.

If you keep both eyes open, using post and notch iron sights, I think this is what happens:

Focussing on the target, you'll see one target easily, because the distant target images in the two eyes are virtually identical and there little or no eye/brain adjustment needed. There will be two FS and two RS images to reconcile, though.

Focussing on the RS, the nearest object of the three parts of the sight picture, the eyes have the most adjustment to make, with the most eye crossing likely. This is physically difficult, and also will cause the most double image effect on the FS, (as well as on the target, since the eyes are no longer in alignment for distant objects).

Focussing on the FS, you'll have better eye alignment for one image of the target, the best alignment and sharpest vision on the FS, and the worst aligment for double image on the rear sight. The sharper image of the FS makes it easier to suppress the FS double image. The close in RS double images are out of focus and easier to suppress. The target image isn't much more difficult for the eye/brain than the target focus scenario because the distant images in each eye are the same in both cases.

All that to say that a FS focus may have been recommended in part because it helps to reduce the problem of double images in the sight picture. And that's not to say that double image suppression while using both eyes is an easy or even possible thing for all shooters to accomplish.

My two cents worth.

Kevin C.

[ArnisAndyz]

I have a progression question...

I've been using the tape on the glasses trick with some sucess for about 8 months. Before I did this it was very difficult to focus on the front sight with 2 eyes open. Just recently I started dry firing without the tape and was surprised that the double vision was pretty much gone but the front sight isn't near as sharp and crisp as it is when using the tape. Should I stick with the tape or see if I can get my focus better without the tape? The tape only blocks a small area, but shooting without it seems to open up my field of view and makes it easier/faster on transitions and picking up targets. Is the tape trick suppose to be a crutch until I learn to walk, or do some of you more experienced guys still use the tape?

Thanks

[unclez]

Bump for a good thread. And a question added:

Can someone tell me why both eyes open should be so much better than one? I know your periphual (<spelling) vision will be better with both but as hard as I try I just can't train my brain/eyes to get good consistent shots this way and have therefore gone back to using one eye. Hats off to the guys who can do this consistently and get good shots.

Zack