Moving uprange

[Build4u]

I am playing a little after being away since 1999. I shot all over the Country from 1983 to 1999 and Competed in 13 U.S. Nationals and Several of the Canadian Nationals. In those years we had stages running ragged close to the 180 line however I never saw movement in a field course traveling up range with a loaded pistol. I have seen videos of larger tournaments with shooters traveling up range, with their body up range and the arm wrapped around the body pointing the pistol down range. It is instinct to put your arms out in front to catch your self if falling or stumbling to protect your brain bucket or face which in that scenario is a scary thing. My friend went down hard during a big movement in Gravel during a Tournament in West Virginia and ended up looking into his own muzzle. Nothing against course designers reading this but it seems like a big accident waiting to happen and I am really surprised it is allowed at all. I was not active to see how this evolved and I am interested in how it came to be an accepted practice.

Thanks, David A6252

[PKT1106]

As long as the muzzle doesn't break the 180, the shooter is responsible for their body movements. If a competitor falls, it is on them to make sure the gun is not in a position to put anyone else in danger. "Retreat" stages present no more safety hazard to anyone than any other stage run down-range. I competitor can fall on either type of course if they try to out-run their body.

[RangerTrace]

I think it really depends on where you shoot and how the bays are built. We don't see it that much at club matches, but it almost always will be found at major matches. It's also the reason I got DQ'd 6 rounds into the first stage of my first major match. My "guess" is that stage designers wanted to use more of the bay, allow for higher round count while including a lot of movement in the stage.

By the way, Welcome Back!

[PKT1106]

It's also the reason I got DQ'd 6 rounds into the first stage of my first major match.

Can you elaborate on this?

[RangerTrace]

It's also the reason I got DQ'd 6 rounds into the first stage of my first major match.

Can you elaborate on this?

Sure. I had only been shooting USPSA for about a year and always at the same club match. They had never set up a stage that required moving up range. My first stage at the DTC required about 5 yards of movement up range after the first array. I knew I had to keep my muzzle pointed down range, but didn't take into account the movement of my non gun hand. The running motion caused me to sweep my arm and I was quickly DQ'd.

[Build4u]

I was a Master class shooter, I shot matches somewhere every week end when it was not winter. I was never Disqualified ever and completely understand the 180 and the shooters responsibility. Being responsible for it does not prevent the potential for an Accident. The logic behind a body pointing uprange with the gun arm wrapped around the body pointing downrange being no more of a safety hazard leaves me speechless, well almost lol. The potential for a loaded gun with a safety off ending up pointing in an unsafe direction (uprange) is way higher. It would have never been allowed in a course design in the past. If you do something edgy long enough something will go wrong.

I guess something that comes to mind is we used to have holster retention tests. They would be before a stage with the gun loaded or built into the course of fire with the gun loaded. I was at a State match standing with two brothers when a guy we knew failed the holster test with his loaded .45 pointing right at us laying in the dirt. They were both Vietnam Vets over my six foot tall and hit the dirt so fast I was left standing there like a 23 year old going what? Holsters looked like a holster back then lol. This was removed from USPSA rules and by memory IPSC for this very reason sometime after because of issues. Courses forcing to pushing the 180 hard all over the place is not a good design in my mind. I am most interested in the History of how this type of stage design became "acceptable".

Edited December 28, 2014 by Build4u

[motosapiens]

Well, if it's so risky, surely there are some examples of it going wrong, right? Or is it just a *feeling* you have?

I've RO'd alot of shooters, and some of them fallen. I have yet to see one that didn't maintain muzzle awareness and control while falling. Gun stays pointed where it should, shooter takes impact on shoulders, side, belly, knees, etc... There's a reason we DQ people for moving with their finger inside the trigger guard AND for the 180, AND for sweeping themselves or anyone else. Any one of these things is enough for a dq, but it takes several of them put together to cause an accident.

For those who think USPSA stages are unsafe, I recommend IDPA (where any kind of going fast is strongly discouraged, lol).

Edited December 28, 2014 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

It would have never been allowed in a course design in the past. If you do something edgy long enough something will go wrong.

".

Edited because it may have sounded rude. So sorry.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Sarge

[grapemeister]

I don't share your concern or agree with your opinion about the safety aspect of moving with a loaded gun up range, but the history of it and when it became acceptable in stage design would be interesting, and if it caused any controversy when it was 1st introduced.

[Build4u]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

[Hi-Power Jack]

a logical explanation why it is a good idea?

In the real world of defensive pistolry (Is that a word?)

there are times when a retreat from a situation might

be The Best Course of Action.

[mgardner]

I like the freedom to run amuck on a course of fire because it simulates real conditions. It must be good real world training or the SAJ in Belgrade wouldn't be a USPSA club. If "Defensive Pistolry" is not a term it should be.

I'd find out when the counter terrorist units began using our format and that would be when we started to regress on stages.

[EEH]

I did not watch the matches back in the early days of ipsc or uspsa but go find some of those old video's.I think you will see shooters climbing ladders running forward and backward . I don't think this is something that just started ,I shot a match this past Saturday which had the option to back up or go forward. With about sixty shooters in the match I was told that only about three did not use the backward movement. I know I did, with no DQ's in the match .It can be done and done well and sometime there is another option.

[motosapiens]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

How about providing a logical explanation (not an emotional and speculative one) for why it's a bad idea?

[Lee G]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

How about providing a logical explanation (not an emotional and speculative one) for why it's a bad idea?

He did:

"It is instinct to put your arms out in front to catch your self if falling or stumbling to protect your brain bucket or face which in that scenario is a scary thing. My friend went down hard during a big movement in Gravel during a Tournament in West Virginia and ended up looking into his own muzzle."

I don't really disagree with him. There is a risk because it is natural to catch yourself. If you think about it running forward or laterally is really more forgiving because we aren't as wrapped up. We still have an arm free even when moving to the strong side to catch ourselves. Running with the gun wrapped over your shoulder I can see how you might instinctively unwrap to get better mobility even if you just try to use your weak hand. The risk is there and we shouldn't kid ourselves. Is it a huge risk? I don't really know, weather would have a lot to do with that assessment.

I agree with him on the 180 traps. I never understood why it's so fun to try and trick shooters into a safety violation.

[RangerTrace]

Our sport, while extremely fun, will always be more "dangerous" that a lot of other sports. Things can happen. You don't have to be moving at all to drop a gun and have it go off. It happened at a match in Dallas and thankfully, the gun wans't pointed at anybody when it went off. I do agree that it is pointless to intentionally design stages that push the limits on the 180.

[motosapiens]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

How about providing a logical explanation (not an emotional and speculative one) for why it's a bad idea?

He did:

"It is instinct to put your arms out in front to catch your self if falling or stumbling to protect your brain bucket or face which in that scenario is a scary thing. My friend went down hard during a big movement in Gravel during a Tournament in West Virginia and ended up looking into his own muzzle."

I don't really disagree with him. There is a risk because it is natural to catch yourself. If you think about it running forward or laterally is really more forgiving because we aren't as wrapped up. We still have an arm free even when moving to the strong side to catch ourselves. Running with the gun wrapped over your shoulder I can see how you might instinctively unwrap to get better mobility even if you just try to use your weak hand. The risk is there and we shouldn't kid ourselves. Is it a huge risk? I don't really know, weather would have a lot to do with that assessment.

I agree with him on the 180 traps. I never understood why it's so fun to try and trick shooters into a safety violation.

That's an emotional reason, not a logical one. A logical reason would have some sort of actual evidence behind it, even anecdotal, like "I saw billy bob trip hisself and his gat ended up pointing right at the rest of the fellers, thank goodness no one got kilt!"

You say 'the risk is there', but I say 'the emotional fear of an alleged risk is there.'

As I mentioned earlier, I have seen people fall, and every one of them was paying more attention to muzzle awareness and safety than anything else. I'm not worried about it.

[motosapiens]

Our sport, while extremely fun, will always be more "dangerous" that a lot of other sports.

It may be perceived as more dangerous than other sports by soccer moms, but the reality is that alot more people will die playing football or racing motorcycles or surfing or skateboarding than will die in shooting sports.

[Lee G]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

How about providing a logical explanation (not an emotional and speculative one) for why it's a bad idea?

He did:

"It is instinct to put your arms out in front to catch your self if falling or stumbling to protect your brain bucket or face which in that scenario is a scary thing. My friend went down hard during a big movement in Gravel during a Tournament in West Virginia and ended up looking into his own muzzle."

I don't really disagree with him. There is a risk because it is natural to catch yourself. If you think about it running forward or laterally is really more forgiving because we aren't as wrapped up. We still have an arm free even when moving to the strong side to catch ourselves. Running with the gun wrapped over your shoulder I can see how you might instinctively unwrap to get better mobility even if you just try to use your weak hand. The risk is there and we shouldn't kid ourselves. Is it a huge risk? I don't really know, weather would have a lot to do with that assessment.

I agree with him on the 180 traps. I never understood why it's so fun to try and trick shooters into a safety violation.

That's an emotional reason, not a logical one. A logical reason would have some sort of actual evidence behind it, even anecdotal, like "I saw billy bob trip hisself and his gat ended up pointing right at the rest of the fellers, thank goodness no one got kilt!"

You say 'the risk is there', but I say 'the emotional fear of an alleged risk is there.'

As I mentioned earlier, I have seen people fall, and every one of them was paying more attention to muzzle awareness and safety than anything else. I'm not worried about it.

Read it again, he gave an example. You don't have to agree with him, but it's a stretch for you to say its "emotional" Edited December 30, 2014 by Lee G

[motosapiens]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

How about providing a logical explanation (not an emotional and speculative one) for why it's a bad idea?

He did:

"It is instinct to put your arms out in front to catch your self if falling or stumbling to protect your brain bucket or face which in that scenario is a scary thing. My friend went down hard during a big movement in Gravel during a Tournament in West Virginia and ended up looking into his own muzzle."

I don't really disagree with him. There is a risk because it is natural to catch yourself. If you think about it running forward or laterally is really more forgiving because we aren't as wrapped up. We still have an arm free even when moving to the strong side to catch ourselves. Running with the gun wrapped over your shoulder I can see how you might instinctively unwrap to get better mobility even if you just try to use your weak hand. The risk is there and we shouldn't kid ourselves. Is it a huge risk? I don't really know, weather would have a lot to do with that assessment.

I agree with him on the 180 traps. I never understood why it's so fun to try and trick shooters into a safety violation.

That's an emotional reason, not a logical one. A logical reason would have some sort of actual evidence behind it, even anecdotal, like "I saw billy bob trip hisself and his gat ended up pointing right at the rest of the fellers, thank goodness no one got kilt!"

You say 'the risk is there', but I say 'the emotional fear of an alleged risk is there.'

As I mentioned earlier, I have seen people fall, and every one of them was paying more attention to muzzle awareness and safety than anything else. I'm not worried about it.

Read it again, he gave an example.

You gave an example of why we shouldn't be allowed to run at all, ever, not with scissors, not with a gun, not with a butter knife. Was your friend running uprange? If not, then it is irrelevant, except to highlight the existing safety rules, which would cause him a match dq, but also ensure the safety of your friend and of spectators, unless MULTIPLE rules are broken severely.

Edited December 30, 2014 by motosapiens

[Lee G]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

How about providing a logical explanation (not an emotional and speculative one) for why it's a bad idea?

He did:

"It is instinct to put your arms out in front to catch your self if falling or stumbling to protect your brain bucket or face which in that scenario is a scary thing. My friend went down hard during a big movement in Gravel during a Tournament in West Virginia and ended up looking into his own muzzle."

I don't really disagree with him. There is a risk because it is natural to catch yourself. If you think about it running forward or laterally is really more forgiving because we aren't as wrapped up. We still have an arm free even when moving to the strong side to catch ourselves. Running with the gun wrapped over your shoulder I can see how you might instinctively unwrap to get better mobility even if you just try to use your weak hand. The risk is there and we shouldn't kid ourselves. Is it a huge risk? I don't really know, weather would have a lot to do with that assessment.

I agree with him on the 180 traps. I never understood why it's so fun to try and trick shooters into a safety violation.

That's an emotional reason, not a logical one. A logical reason would have some sort of actual evidence behind it, even anecdotal, like "I saw billy bob trip hisself and his gat ended up pointing right at the rest of the fellers, thank goodness no one got kilt!"

You say 'the risk is there', but I say 'the emotional fear of an alleged risk is there.'

As I mentioned earlier, I have seen people fall, and every one of them was paying more attention to muzzle awareness and safety than anything else. I'm not worried about it.

Read it again, he gave an example.

You gave an example of why we shouldn't be allowed to run at all, ever, not with scissors, not with a gun, not with a butter knife. Was your friend running uprange? If not, then it is irrelevant, except to highlight the existing safety rules, which would cause him a match dq, but also ensure the safety of your friend and of spectators, unless MULTIPLE rules are broken severely.

Sounds like you're getting emotional. Who are you talking to? It wasn't my example or even my argument.

[mgardner]

Having the freedom to solve the course problem freestyle means developing the discipline to learn to travel safely with the gun and the ability to visualize the course and your route beforehand. The dangerous actions I've witnessed were usually from competitors who tried to push themselves beyond their abilities. The time to do that is in practice.

[AWLAZS]

a logical explanation why it is a good idea?

In the real world of defensive pistolry (Is that a word?)

there are times when a retreat from a situation might

be The Best Course of Action.

You would't be worried about where the muzzle was pointed "In the real world".

[joakim]

I participated in a match this summer that was set up as a big X, targets in each end, start and all mags on a barrel in the middle, soft sand to run in. There were a few DQs for sweeping.

For me IPSC is 100% sport but if we have the 'practical' part in mind I can't think of a practical scenario where you would run with the gun pointing backwards. That and the added risk, at least for less trained competitors, makes me think that stages where you run uprange more than short distance should be very rare. It doesn't need to be banned but it should be used with caution.

I was also away for 15 years and one thing that virutally has disapered (atleast around here) is the start with the back towards the targets, security stated as the reason. I have a bigger problem with that as a perfectly executed 'el Presidente' should be the goal for every IPSC competitor.

[RangerTrace]

I am just asking if someone knows the History of how it evolved, I am curious when it started, if it first started in IPSC, or was decided to be allowed by a leadership decision, or even a logical explanation why it is a good idea? Nothing against IDPA, but it is not for me.

How about providing a logical explanation (not an emotional and speculative one) for why it's a bad idea?

He did:

"It is instinct to put your arms out in front to catch your self if falling or stumbling to protect your brain bucket or face which in that scenario is a scary thing. My friend went down hard during a big movement in Gravel during a Tournament in West Virginia and ended up looking into his own muzzle."

I don't really disagree with him. There is a risk because it is natural to catch yourself. If you think about it running forward or laterally is really more forgiving because we aren't as wrapped up. We still have an arm free even when moving to the strong side to catch ourselves. Running with the gun wrapped over your shoulder I can see how you might instinctively unwrap to get better mobility even if you just try to use your weak hand. The risk is there and we shouldn't kid ourselves. Is it a huge risk? I don't really know, weather would have a lot to do with that assessment.

I agree with him on the 180 traps. I never understood why it's so fun to try and trick shooters into a safety violation.

That's an emotional reason, not a logical one. A logical reason would have some sort of actual evidence behind it, even anecdotal, like "I saw billy bob trip hisself and his gat ended up pointing right at the rest of the fellers, thank goodness no one got kilt!"

You say 'the risk is there', but I say 'the emotional fear of an alleged risk is there.'

As I mentioned earlier, I have seen people fall, and every one of them was paying more attention to muzzle awareness and safety than anything else. I'm not worried about it.

Read it again, he gave an example.

You gave an example of why we shouldn't be allowed to run at all, ever, not with scissors, not with a gun, not with a butter knife. Was your friend running uprange? If not, then it is irrelevant, except to highlight the existing safety rules, which would cause him a match dq, but also ensure the safety of your friend and of spectators, unless MULTIPLE rules are broken severely.

You're getting close......just as a reminder:

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