Ruling opinion from SOs

[GOF]

Rule 5.1.1.1. calls for a PE if the shooter fails to follow the procedures set forth in the COF description.

This COF had 6 targets from 7 to 25 yards. COF description: Limited Vickers, shooter will engage all targets from P1 with three rounds each.

The shooter (ESP) lost count and engaged the last target with only 2 rounds. It was an unintentional 'brain fade' and he had the bullets in the gun to take the 18th shot Certainly not a FTDR!

I gave him a PE for "failing to follow the procedures set forth in the COF description". It called for three rounds per target and he only fired 2 on the last target.

Do any other SOs disagree with that call?

[afoulk]

Sounds right to me, if he had ammo in the gun.

[Cd662]

Correct call, regardless of if the gun had ammo in it or not. You can never prove that someone forgot or didn't forget to engage a target with a round in the gun. A lot of people are quick to levy the threat of FTDR. I've even heard people at sanctioned matches say "If you don't do insert thing here, you are getting an FTDR".

[Butterpuc]

I think it was the correct call, however I would add its weird he didn't shoot the third shot.

I think the call would be different had he been shooting CDP

Edited December 22, 2014 by Butterpuc

[RePete]

Correct call.

[BillR1]

Sounds correct to me...

[newmexicocrawler]

Isn't there also a PE for not firing enough shots?

[Tarkeg]

Nah. This would apply.

5.1.2. Only one (1) PE is assessed for each type of infraction in a string of fire. If the shooter commits more
than one type of infraction, such as using the wrong specified hand AND firing an incorrect number of
shots, a separate PE is assessed for each type of infraction.

[Butterpuc]

Isn't there also a PE for not firing enough shots?

I think that is the same infraction. Not fitna enough shots is not following the COF. that's the way I understood it.

[Rob Tompkins]

+1 for correct call.

[chuck s]

For sure the correct call. A FTDR does not come in to play here, regardless of the shooters intentions. Not firing the prescribed number of shots at a target does not give him any advantage. PE ,plus the points down on the target for the shot not taken.

[Butterpuc]

For sure the correct call. A FTDR does not come in to play here, regardless of the shooters intentions. Not firing the prescribed number of shots at a target does not give him any advantage. PE ,plus the points down on the target for the shot not taken.

The only FTDR argument I would have is for CDP. If they didn't make the reload to get the 18th shot, I would have called it a FTDR.

[chuck s]

I still could not see giving a FTDR in that instance. Assuming he did it intentionally, he gave up 3 seconds for the failure to follow COF and 5 seconds for the missed shot on target, plus the greater possibility of a FTN. Hard to show any intent to gain an unfair advantage there.

[DTO]

I still could not see giving a FTDR in that instance. Assuming he did it intentionally, he gave up 3 seconds for the failure to follow COF and 5 seconds for the missed shot on target, plus the greater possibility of a FTN. Hard to show any intent to gain an unfair advantage there.

According to the FTDR rule clarification, all that is required to earn the FTDR is not reloading to take one or more shots. The shooter's intentions are irrelevant. The perform the reload and take the shot, no FTDR. They do not perform reload and take the shot, FTDR.

[chuck s]

Where is that? Rule 5.5 specifically states that a FTDR should not be assessed for inadvertent shooter errors, or in cases where it is obvious that the shooter gained no competitive advantage.

I don't doubt that there has been a change, I just need to read it.

[TnBaadBoy]

Exceptions and specific examples abound! Consider these sets of circumstances .......which 'could' affect ANY division....

Example: 2014 IDPA Nationals. ONE of the very few FTDRs was issued to a SSR shooter for failing to 'fire' the minimum number of rounds per target!

Stage: 18 rounds; 6 targets; required 3x rounds per target. Final target disappeared from view at the last 'normal' (primary) shooting position, but by dashing 8 yards that final target presented a head shot, so it was deemed a NON-disappearing target for scoring purposes.

New rules no longer allow the 'gray' excuse of completing COF requirements by merely firing 18 rounds. New rules mandate a minimum (engagement) number of shots 'fired' for each target.

SSR shooter attempted to 'fire' the required number of rounds with the required number of engagements for each target as prescribed.

However...ONE of his attempts resulted in a 'light-strike' .... i.e. clicky / no bangy!

At the conclusion of the SSR shooter's attempt, the S/O plainly states, "IF the shooter is finished UNload" command. As normal the shooter unloads believing he has done his best to comply with the COF.

The shooter is issued a 20-second FTDR for not 'firing' the required number of shots as required, because he DID have additional ammo on his belt and did NOT reload and 'fire' the remaining single round.

I attempted to serve as the shooter's advocate, since he was visibly shaken by the inference that he was 'cheating' or demonstrated any degree of UNsportsman-like behavior and so deserved an FTDR.

After much debate and personal discussions with the MD and the AC, the operative word in this whole event is 'fire', and the penalty eventually stood, the shooter opted NOT to pursue an official $100 resolution.

As a post-script to the event, it was determined that the shooter was NOT required to reload and race to the alternate shooting position to 'fire' an additional shot, but could have merely reloaded and 'fired' an additional shot into the berm and met the criteria of minimum 'fired' shots / engagements.

Obviously, the operative word in this whole example is "FIRED", versus pressing the trigger in an engagement 'best-efforts' attempt.

** [ My personal past experience (along with others) netted most 'opinions' that an 'engagement' requirement was met by pulling a trigger and ATTEMPTING to engage the target....but for lack of mechanical/ammo difficulties meeting the intent of the COF. Clearly NOT considered as appropriate and 'over-ruled' in this instance! ] **

Although likely not the case, this same set of circumstances could occur to a shooter in any division, even with the significant differences of number of rounds carried.

Bob

**Edit #1 to clarify the OLD (wrong) concept of 'engagement interpretation' **

Edited January 2, 2015 by TnBaadBoy

[GOF]

I could see why a FTDR was awarded in the situation as described. The shooter DID have ammunition available for a reload. He DID have the option of reloading, moving forward, and firing the required number of rounds. The shooter CHOOSE not to.

A similar situation happened to me that a IDPA National (2006?/2007?). I was SSR.. Craig Buckland (Bones) was the SO. Final shooting position had me hanging out in space, holding onto a post with the support hand and firing strong hand. I had a misfire. I had additional ammo. I pulled back, reloaded, and re-hung out. It cost me a good 9-10 seconds. But, it allowed me to fire the final shot. After the stage I asked Bones if he would have given me a FTDR if I had just claimed 'misfire' and not reloaded. He said YES. I was also an SO and I agreed with him.

In both cases, the shooter had ammo to reload and continue. Failing to do so is a FTDR. I would cheerfully have accepted a 3 second PE... but I knew I would get a FTDR.

In my original OP the situation was different. The shooter had bullets in his gun. He just lost count - brain fart. PE only. No FTDR. There is a difference between a PE and a FTDR.... fine enough difference that after 7 years as a SO I have yet to issue a FTDR.

[chuck s]

Revolver definitely changes things, since reloads tale so long, however, I would have a hard time picking on them in cases such as those presented. I really view the FTDR as a hedge against willful unfair play. I do realize it is impossible to read a persons mind and tell if they are cheating or not.

[DTO]

Where is that? Rule 5.5 specifically states that a FTDR should not be assessed for inadvertent shooter errors, or in cases where it is obvious that the shooter gained no competitive advantage.

I don't doubt that there has been a change, I just need to read it.

It is in the rule book clarifications on the IDPA website.

[Glock3422]

I'm shocked that these sorts of discussions still come up after the carefully thought out, meticulously enumerated, and well studied work of the Tiger Team.

Someone send me a PM when the New, New Rulebook is out. I don't get the emails anymore.

[kirbinster]

I was at a match when a new shooter received an FTDR for failure to fire at the last target. He had done poorly in the stage and after finishing two full magazines (third fully loaded still on his belt) he just looked to the SO and said something to the effect "Screw it, I'm done" The SO gave him the commands to unload show clear and holster and immediately awarded him the FTDR. When questioned he responded that while he did not want to do this, especially for a new shooter, he had to as that is the exact example that is used in the rule book as to when it is appropriate to award an FTDR.

In the new rule book that just came out, section 3.6.6 states "If the shooter has ammo remaining, not reloading to fire the last one or more rounds in a stage is an automatic FTDR penalty."

Edited January 31, 2015 by kirbinster

[GOF]

That's the kind of wording that lets "Tribal Rules" pop into play.

Does it mean that the shooter must be empty (as the wording might imply given the "not reloading to fire the last one or more rounds on the stage") or does it give increased disgression to the crop of new SOs to automatically give a FTDR to anyone who fails to fire the required number of rounds specified in the COF description.

[kirbinster]

GOF - It is not saying anything about about not firing the specified number of rounds, it addresses stopping before finishing a course of fire when you still have ammo. For example if there were 6 targets requiring two shots each there would be no FTDR if for some reason you only fired 1 at target T3 (well a procedural and a down 5), you would only get the FTDR if you failed to engage the last target (or last two) when you had the ammo to do it.