kurtm Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Sure, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike41 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Doesn't Tommy Thacker and Greg Jordan both shoot an A5? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Yes they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarpau Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 .... Lets just say I would rather shoot against shooters shooting a benelli than a A5 especially a shotgun stage with lots of targets, any question why. Blaster Would like to hear your thoughts on why. I've put maybe 20 rounds through an A5 so don't have much experience with them, but have been shooting benelli's in one form or another for a while. Genuinely curious as to what I'm giving up by not using one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxymajor Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 An example of the A5 advantage was at my match yesterday. It was a start empty stage so I was able to load six standing and then load 6 on the move, when everybody else had to load eight standing and move (because I could auto-load from bolt lock empty after shooting the 6 target array). I also used the auto-load feature to load on the start, a quick rack of the bolt back and just load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarpau Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Cool. Off an empty start, where you are permitted to have the action open, you have one less movement to do in terms of having to charge the gun. When the action is closed, does charging the gun automatically feed one out of the tube? or do you still have to hit the button/pull the trigger to get a shell out of the magazine? I currently load 2/4 weak hand so during the time/movement to get the gun up to my shoulder, I have racked/loaded the chamber and ready to go once I get my sight picture. Even if the start position allows me to have the action open on an empty gun, I start action closed as its faster for me. Load the tube as fast as possible, and then load the chamber on the way to my shoulder. On an empty chamber start, but magazine loaded, I put one on the lifter so I just rack the bolt back and off I go. I'd like to play with the A5 more as I do like the gun, but Blaster's statement makes it seem as though he wins competitions because the A5 is vastly superior. I would like to hear his thoughts as to why. He made a pretty bold statement. And curious as to why he feels a longer course of fire favours the A5 vs the Benelli (or I guess any other platform) Edited November 23, 2014 by sarpau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) So lets see, you loaded 6, shot the gun dry, and then loaded six on the move....12 round stage. So lets say the auto load feature loaded a shell into the gun around 3/4 of a second faster than (actually that is VERY generous, it is closer to .35-.4 when a buddy of mine with a Gold used to race) a guy can drop a shell in and hit the closer tab. You load six...TWO grabs.....or 3 if you are duecing. They load 8... Two grabs. Time a wash, but you are a head the amount of time it takes to load the extra shells...lets say another .75 So right now you are a generous 1.5 ahead. Lets say all shooters hit all the targets and their shot splits are identical. You shoot dry and start moving while loading the next six.....at least TWO GRABS. They start moving and now only need to load 4 .... ONE GRAB, since they only load 4, you loose the time to load Two more, plus the time for the extra grab...etc say around 1.2 because we are all a bit slower while moving....you win by a decisive .3 seconds. Is it an advantage....yes! Is it a "game changer"...not really as .3 can be lost in one mis step, or 3 slow splits, One miss. Now those bad things can happen to the other guy as well and I acknowledge that. Here is where it gets painful for auto loads. You think it goes dry, but it is really jammed. You grab your next 4 rounds and try to load it. You jam your first shells in and lock up the gun, or it tries to auto load and now you have a shell half way out on the lifter and one above it..... this is now true a game changer, and vocabulary enhancer. Once again they are good shotguns, if they fit and shoot for you there is no reason not to get one. But it isn't a game changer. A Game changer would be a reliable magazine fed shotgun allowed in any of the Tactical divisions. Note: all guessed times are from lots of shooting and timing against the guys from the British National Standard Semi-auto Shotgun team.....When they all ran Golds.....before Switching to Benelli. Edited November 23, 2014 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I can't wait to get one of these game changers. Dan Horner watch out here I come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Dan Horner... hell I'd be happy just beating Katie Harris, or Katie Frances! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxymajor Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 A couple things for that senairio. I was two-loading weak hand. It was 3GN Classifier "04-15 reload for times 12 steel". Time was 13:54. What ever time I was a ahead from the 1st box I kept because I was loading on the run and was finished loading and ready to shoot before getting to the second box (I did 3 grabs of 2). On the start, by swiping the bolt handle (to lock back the bolt for auto-load) with my weak hand from the port arms position on the way to grab shells, it was just load 6 and shoot (no playing with the trigger or shell catch and racking the bolt). Kurt has good points on the reliability issue. I have not heard anything yet. I have ran my A5 15 stages without any issues. The only issue I can remember was the shell release was a little quirky after loading the tube full and trying to release a shell before the start of the stage...has not happened again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxymajor Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) I can't wait to get one of these game changers. Dan Horner watch out here I come! I'm no slouch with a shotgun, but I am in no way saying I could beat Daniel Horner in a match. He would bury me. Looking on the 3GN website, Daniel had the 4th fastest time in the leader standings in TO on this stage at 14.00 seconds. I ran it in 13:54. (I am sure he could run it faster). I think the A5 and the technique above gave me the advantage on this particular stage.Tommy Smith ran it in 12:28! It would interesting to know what shotgun he used. Anybody know? Edited November 23, 2014 by roxymajor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Kurt, not saying I disagree with your point but I wish you would stop implying that the A5 and the Auto 5 are in some way related. they have about as much in common as an M&P 9mm and an M&P Victory model. The A5 is much more like a Benelli than it is an Auto 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarpau Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Last I checked, Tommy uses a Benelli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSnSC Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 (edited) Tommy runs a Benelli M2 and loads quads weak handed. He did that at our October match. Edited November 23, 2014 by LSnSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Actually T Bacus, the auto load parts are identical. I bet the NEW A5 parts would drop right in and run in a A5 made in 1905. The original A5 was a long INERTIA system. The NEW one is a short inertia system. The only real difference is the barrel doesn't reciprocate and the main spring is now. In the stock instead of around the mag tube, AND NOW....TA DA!!!! They made an extension tube that increased capacity from 5 to 10 rounds in 1913.....nothing new here....move along, move along! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Roxie, did the guys who only had to load 4 get to the box and still have to load? If they loaded 8 at the start it seems to me that they WOULD NOT have to load to a locked back gun and should have been able to at least load 4 in the same time you loaded 6. So we are still just back to the time it takes to rack the bolt....which you ALSO SAY YOU HAD TO DO! and release a shell onto the carrier.....with perhaps a single trigger pull.....which still doesn't add up to huge time differentials. Let me ask one pertinent question. Were you better than the rest of the field because of the gun? Meaning the people you shoot with usually tie or are a better than you, or do you usually beat them with or without the auto load feature? I don't put much stock in the 3GN "par Times" as many of them are not timed or set up the same way, which is a common complaint from these very same forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Seems like a lot of animosity here. I don't have an opinion of the A5 as I've never shot one. But I agree with Kurt, the gun may be average or great or whatever but I don't think the one cool feature that sets it apart is enough to turn the 3g world on its head. The top guys will still beat the rest of us with whatever gun they choose or are sponsored to run, auto load or not. Actually, I get the feeling Horner could beat me with a slingshot or even an atlatl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Well yeah I dont think anyone is really suggesting its going to redefine shotgunning in the sport but its a neat feature that may be handy here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I agree with you, it's neat and could be handy. But the words "game changer" have been tossed around on occasion. I think that's a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Funny enough only Kurt's said it in this thread but I can understand why browning would say it, marketing! Otherwise people are always going to push the gear they use as "best"... like all those benelli owners... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 HELL YEAH IT'S A NEAT FEATURE!!! I'm pretty happy with beer cans with their own pop tab, electric can openers are great! Self cancelling turn signals ROCK....and a thermos....well how do they know? But a church key can be just as fast as a pull tab, if I boil it or chill, it in the short term, just as good as a thermos. If i remember to click it off, turn signals are a wash....but DAMN!!!! Those electric can openers ARE a game changer!!!! I have no animosity twards the gun! From what I have seen and played with....fine! Game changer??? NAHHHH. And that is from racing against Golds....which we timed tonight against a "NEW" A5 for the auto load feature....and they were dead even at an average of .34 seconds from shell "click" into mag tube to bolt closed. Also it took an average of .85 seconds opposed to a very slow drop a shell in and hit the closer tab at an average of .97. ( on beep grab a shell and load it!)......NOW.... I need my kids to come show me how to turn down the sensitivity on my damn timer!!!! Oh yeah some beer has been involved in our scientific testing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxymajor Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Kurt, yes. That was my point. There was no differ in the six load or 4 load to the box, it was "free load time" .... The the A5 start rack was basicly the same as grabbing for the 1st shell grab (pulling the weak hand from the port arms position racking the bolt to lock it back 'was on the way' to the 1st grab before loading the load port), so there is minimal wasted motion. Bottom line and end of story. ... if Kurt Miller A5 shooter and Kurt Miller M1 shooter shot a shotgun match, Kurt Miller A5 would win (if both guns run). The shotgun has an advantage whether it is 1/2 second or ten seconds. I agree it's not a game changer for most shooters, but will pick up some seconds, all things equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwikel Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 Wow I may need to delete this thread with all the butthurt that is flowing here. Sorry I didn't mean for this to turn into a shotgun debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxymajor Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 HELL YEAH IT'S A NEAT FEATURE!!! I'm pretty happy with beer cans with their own pop tab, electric can openers are great! Self cancelling turn signals ROCK....and a thermos....well how do they know? But a church key can be just as fast as a pull tab, if I boil it or chill, it in the short term, just as good as a thermos. If i remember to click it off, turn signals are a wash....but DAMN!!!! Those electric can openers ARE a game changer!!!! I have no animosity twards the gun! From what I have seen and played with....fine! Game changer??? NAHHHH. And that is from racing against Golds....which we timed tonight against a "NEW" A5 for the auto load feature....and they were dead even at an average of .34 seconds from shell "click" into mag tube to bolt closed. Also it took an average of .85 seconds opposed to a very slow drop a shell in and hit the closer tab at an average of .97. ( on beep grab a shell and load it!)......NOW.... I need my kids to come show me how to turn down the sensitivity on my damn timer!!!! Oh yeah some beer has been involved in our scientific testing! Sounds fun. If your still drinking beer and racing, see what the difference is in "deuce loading" 2 shells weak hand from empty locked back bolt, shoulder back to shoulder. A5 vs M1/2. That is probably a better loading senairio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roxymajor Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Wow I may need to delete this thread with all the butthurt that is flowing here. Sorry I didn't mean for this to turn into a shotgun debate.Ah. Just having a little back and forth. He knows we all respect the hell out of him. We'll at least I do! Edited November 24, 2014 by roxymajor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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