Classification with now illegal guns

[spd522]

With all the rules changes and additions, some of us started thinking about how the rules affect your past and future performance. Playing the devils advocate here, let's take a couple of possible situations that can occur.

1) You classified in SSP with a Para Ordnance LDA as a EX, just barely making the cutoff out of SS. That is the gun you have shot in SSP since you started shooting IDPA.

Now with the new rules, the stock LDA is no longer legal for SSP as it weighs over the 39oz allowed for SSP.

Is your classification no longer valid as well? If you barely made classification with the heavy gamer gun that you are accustomed to, will it not be difficult to start over with a different gun? It appears it shouldn't be valid as you attained your classification with a now illegal gun.

2) Now another "what if". Gun weight rules in every classification were never made an issue in the past. No one weighed guns at matches to verify they were within the rules. Occasionally the box came out but that was it.

Now weights have become an issue thanks to the revolver and SSP rules. How many have been shooting with a gun that has been overweight all along but no one ever questioned it or gave it any thought? I'm not talking about intentional weight adding mods but guns in ESP and CDP that had legal mods and the guns themselves were originally listed as legal by name. Shooter used them in good faith thinking they were OK. What if matches were won with this gun or classifications raised? Should they be voided too?

Just curious. I have legal guns but wondered about the lack of enforcing equipment rules in the past and how they may be treated in the future.

[Clay1]

I've shot 22 rimfire silhouette with my Anschutz 1710D Signature and the gun has been put on the scale at more than one club. The scales will have to be part of the game I guess in IDPA too. I live in a smaller town and asked one of the local packaging companies, if I could bring in the rifle and weight it on a certified scale. No problem they said. Just one lady really opened her eyes while she was at the counter and I pulled the rilfe out of the case at the request of the guy that would weight it for me. Personally I would have waited until the store was fairly empty, but they had no issues what so ever with it. By the way, I gave them every piece of business that I could as a result of them helping me out. The business was a locally owned "Mailboxes Etc.". Very nice people. The point is that you should know the weight of your firearm and it should be no surprise whether you are under or over the limit.

[Sac Law Man]

SPD,

This would be my guess..What has happened in the past remains as is. Its really no different than shooting different Glocks in SSP for example. If for some reason the gun you were using is now illegal, you should quallify with the new gun as soon as possible.

if you were shooting a gun that was too heavy, won matches with it, but never knew until now it was over the weight limit, oh well...now you know..

I haven't shot a match yet where they weighed guns, hopefully I don't either. I would hope this rule is enforced strictly by the honor system. I think it would be a sad day for IDPA when they start weighing guns,,However, its probably gunna happen eventually,,,

[Crusher]

Handguns permitted for STOCK SERVICE PISTOL division must be Double

Action, Double Action ONLY, or Safe Action and be of 9mm (9x19) or larger

caliber, be readily available on dealers’ shelves, have a minimum annual

production of 2000 units (discontinued models must have had a total

production of 20,000 units) and meet the following criteria: Pistol including

magazine must fit in a box measuring 8 3/4" x 6 " x 1 5/8". No external

modifications other than changing sights and grips will be permitted. To

reduce cost and provide a level playing field for all pistols permitted, the

maximum number of rounds that may be loaded in a magazine is ten (10).

Above is the Rule IDPA will opperate under until January 25, 2006 (for SSP). Notice there was NO weight restiction for SSP. So your not illigal just yet.

This rule applies to firearms only; specifically any rule change

that would disallow a firearm previously approved for IDPA

competition. Firearm criteria changes will only be reviewed every two (2) years. Any firearm criteria changes will go into effect

twelve (12) months after approval.

Above is the rule that indicates WHEN changes to firearms rules will take effect.

A competitor may compete in club matches in a division he does

not have a classification in, provided he competes in the highest

classification he presently holds. Shooters may not go down in

classification except for permanent physical disability or for other

irrevocable reasons. IDPA HQ will determine this. When

shooting the classifier for different divisions, you must shoot a

separate classification match for each division you wish to

compete in, even if you use the same gun.

Above is the proceedure that indicates WHAT classification a shooter will use if "un-classified in a division for Club Matches Only.

As far as weighing guns, I have attended several regional and state sanctioned matches where firearms ARE "Boxed and Weighed", Club matches may or may not.

The LDA will no longer be permited in SSP (Jan 25, 2006) and to be safe (CYA) you would be wise to re-shoot the clasifier with a handgun that makes the weight before Jan. 25, 2006 if you plan to continue shooting IDPA.

Bottom line seems to be KNOW your equipment, and be sure that ALL of the gear you use in the sanctioned matches conforms to the "NEW & IMPROVED RULEBOOK" or risk a match DQ along with some out of pocket expenses (Match fees, Travel expenses, etc.) and the "dreaded GAMER" title.

[spd522]

I guess re-shooting the classifier would be appropriate to maintain the "integrity" of the shooter. Note I didn't say integrity and IDPA together. Classify with the currently legal gun and continue on. Besides, HQ keeps no record of member classifications anyway. I thought this was rather odd.

Oh well, any day burning powder is a good day.

[TractorTed]

Your classification will not change. You cannot have your classification lowered unless you have incured a permanent physical handicap that would prevent you from shooting at your current level. Unfortunately loosing an LDA doesn't count as a physical handicap, they wouldn't buy the "LDA means lower digit artery" arguement.

If you were shooting a gun that is now overweight, it's the same as the dreaded "daylight syndrome" with the holsters, your problem not theirs.

If matches were won or classifications raised, they would remain in as they are.

[Jim Watson]

Since we are now required to reclassify annually, won't (or shouldn't) classifications with non-compliant "equipment" soon be replaced?

Just in case I get to a match with a scale, I have checked my guns and am replacing my trusty old steel backed Pachmayr wraparound grips with walnut and tape so as to make weight. Replacing or modifying holsters and ammo carriers, of course.

[Crusher]

I have re-read what HQ (in the "New & Improved 3rd edition/revision) indicates for re-classification of previously classified competitors in the SSR division.

NOTE: Any shooter who obtained their current SSR

classification using a full moon clip revolver must re-classify as

an ESR shooter.

p. 70

This is where it gets a little confusing. Notice that the above quote indicate that an SSR shooter using "full moon clips" must re-classify for ESR but NOT for SSR even though full moon clips may have been used to obtain a classification in SSR.

I think Ted may be correct in his assesment that you will STILL be classified in your current class REGARDLESS of the handgun used to achieve that classification as long as it fit within the rules of a specific division in the past.

You have a baseline (from your classification score) to compare with a new classification score you shoot in the future with an "approved" handgun post 01/25/06. If that score falls below (far) your baseline you get to "Burn even more powder" to play catch up.

YeeeeHaaaaaa

[PhilTerry]

I'm a little confused on the Para weight issue!

My out of the box LDA 45 with a 10 round factory magazine is 1107 grams (39oz)on my calibrated laboratory scales.

What am I missing?

[Gun Geek]

The classification question is a non-issue (from the IDPA standpoint):

1) If you classified too high because you had a heavy gun, then tough tooties. You get your clock cleaned until you get better with legal equipment. This should really only be an issue for someone who is right on the cusp, and heck, they should quit sandbagging anyway.

2) If you now have to shoot ESP then you compete at the master level (and get your but kicked) until you re-classify in the new division.

Point is - there's no advantage to the shooter in the way things have changes, and there is built-in motivation to stop sandbagging, as well as good reason to shoot a classifer. It's all good.

As far as matches in the past, they're in the past and no point on going back.

I have been to a couple of matches where guns were boxed and weighed. At club matches we have weighed a few times just for "fun". Mostly just out of curiosity. I have also been checked a couple of times over the chrono.

I think the weight stuff will and should be checked just like just like the box, holster, and chrono rules.

[Scooter]

I'm a little confused on the Para weight issue!

My out of the box LDA 45 with a 10 round factory magazine is 1107 grams (39oz)on my calibrated laboratory scales.

What am I missing?

1107 gram = 39.0482759 ounce, with sig figs, 39.05 ounces. Technically you are illegal.

You might want to wipe some Slide Glide off the gun.

[PhilTerry]

Now 1095 gram! Made it!

[Gun Geek]

Now 1095 gram! Made it!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

The sound of Dremel making the Sig legal for IDPA

[waktasz]

YOu can shave off some material from under the grips and it will make weight if you are feeling fiesty. There is no approved gun list so as long as it fits the box and makes weight you should be legal.

[TractorTed]

YOu can shave off some material from under the grips and it will make weight if you are feeling fiesty. There is no approved gun list so as long as it fits the box and makes weight you should be legal.

BE VERY CAREFUL! The rulebook still has an inclusive list of mods you can do to a gun, and lightening it is not on that list. As a matter of fact, lightening the slide is on the list of non-IDPA allowable mods. Personally, I would shave a little hear and there on the grip area of the frame, but be neat and tell no one. BTW, Not an issue for me at this time, I shoot tactical Tupperware.

[kevin c]

JWatson, Crusher and Gun Geek seem to have it pegged.

If HQ doesn't keep classifications, the only records are what you and your club keep locally, and what will ultimately matter is what you do on your next classifiers. Any classifier done in the next twelve months can be done with equipment legal under the previous rules, though, if that equipment will be illegal for what it was used for and gave you a clear competitive advantage (which is not necessarily the case, nor necessarily why you use that equipment), you'll have to adjust later on, like it or not, agree with it or not, to play the game as the new rules will dictate.

Locally, the clubs will figure out how much effort they will expend to comply with the regs.

Be sure that the state and national matches will follow the regs to the letter.

[Carlos]

Tractor Ted wrote: "BE VERY CAREFUL! The rulebook still has an inclusive list of mods you can do to a gun, and lightening it is not on that list. As a matter of fact, lightening the slide is on the list of non-IDPA allowable mods. Personally, I would shave a little hear and there on the grip area of the frame, but be neat and tell no one."

Are you required to shoot with the grip panels & grip screws in place? Could'nt those simply be removed? You have not altered any part on the gun & the slide is not affected. Also, what about the sights? They are allowed to be replaced in all IDPA classes so what about instaling the lighter Glock plastic sights in place of the heavy steel factory sights? Might save some weight.

I think there a likely several unnecessary parts on most guns that could simply be left out or "lost" & thus not constitute any modification to the gun. For example, what about leaving out the grip safety & ejector pin entirely on a 1911? Not the most comfortable to shoot without the safety (nor would leaving off the grips) but its within the rules & it could get you back into the game.

Just a thought. Regards,

D.

[Anthony Lombardo]

I don;t think it would really matter?

[Glock2234]

An interesting result of this is people who made modifications to 1911s in order to make them more reliable, with a functioning grip safety, may find themselves too heavy. Many need a grip safety with a raised bump to make sure the safety is released. That better functioning grip safety is heavier than stock.

Some magazines weigh more than others. I'm sure someone will develop a mag to knock off a couple 1/10s of an ounce.

We have already had conversations about taking the grips off and covering the metal with grip tape. I don't think I would carry that, but it will help make weight.

The shame is that it will take 2 years to fix this mess after it goes into effect.

So we will have specially made holsters to guarantee no daylight.

We will have aftermarket part of light weight (not necessarily reliable) parts.

We will have at least two years to enjoy this version of the rule book.

[Jim Watson]

I have read that E. Langdon had to do some grinding to make weight with a Sig-Sauer P220ST after he installed beavertail and funnel. Do you think we paying customers will be allowed to do similarly?

S&A makes an aluminum 1911 MSH/mag well funnel that will save some weight. They do not wholesale it to Brownells et al, you have to order it direct at list price.

[TractorTed]

Are you required to shoot with the grip panels & grip screws in place? Could'nt those simply be removed? You have not altered any part on the gun & the slide is not affected. Also, what about the sights? They are allowed to be replaced in all IDPA classes so what about instaling the lighter Glock plastic sights in place of the heavy steel factory sights? Might save some weight.

I think there a likely several unnecessary parts on most guns that could simply be left out or "lost" & thus not constitute any modification to the gun. For example, what about leaving out the grip safety & ejector pin entirely on a 1911? Not the most comfortable to shoot without the safety (nor would leaving off the grips) but its within the rules & it could get you back into the game.

Just a thought. Regards,

D.

I'm not sure you could get away with no grips, you sneaky devil you. hehe. If it were my match, I'm not sure I would allow that, but I haven't found anything in the rulebook except possibly a safety issue that would prevent it. If, however, I did allow it, I would make sure someone checked up on you at every stage to make sure you didn't put grips on somewhere down the line. (Even though I think the weight limits are second only to the daylight syndrome for holsters in stupidity.)

If you needed to shave just a tiny bit, the sights may help, but if you had to shave that little, I'd let it slide without that modification.

As far as the grip safety, you'll get slapped hard for that one. The rules state under "Non-IDPA-Legal Modifications for ALL Divisions" on page 17 of the latest version of the final edition of the new and "improved" rulebook:

The following modifications are NOT ALLOWED IN ANY

DIVISION unless otherwise specifically mentioned.

...E. Disconnection or disabling of any safety device on any gun.

Ted

EDIT: I just thought of something. What about polymer replacement parts like guide rods etc. ??? Hmmm.

[Ted Murphy]

BE VERY CAREFUL! The rulebook still has an inclusive list of mods you can do to a gun, and lightening it is not on that list.

Rule book says under excluded mods for ESP & CDP : "4. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for further information)

from the glossary:

"Slide, lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage."

That's removing some of the slide metal to regulate slide speed. The book does not prohibit removing material on the frame at all.

Some guys do away with light rails or add an ed brown bobtail or whatever. That's all legal.

Ted

[TractorTed]

BE VERY CAREFUL! The rulebook still has an inclusive list of mods you can do to a gun, and lightening it is not on that list.

Rule book says under excluded mods for ESP & CDP : "4. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for further information)

from the glossary:

"Slide, lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage."

That's removing some of the slide metal to regulate slide speed. The book does not prohibit removing material on the frame at all.

Some guys do away with light rails or add an ed brown bobtail or whatever. That's all legal.

Ted

Cool. I thought that if it wasn't on the list of allowable modifications, you couldn't do it. Thanks Ted.

TractorTed

[BroncoGlenn]

"Slide, lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage."

So an aggresive dehorning job on the slide to make for a more comfortable carrying gun is ok as long as you don't do it for the sake of lightening the slide?

[Dawg5]

Along with the dehorning of the gun, you could go for the front and rear cocking serrations. If you don't have ones in the front, that will take some weight off. Also if your gun has serrations that are close together, you could change the cut of the slide a bit. The standard "Bomar" style cut for the rear and putting a adjustable sight on the rear might lose some weight. There is truly a lot of stuff you could do if you put your mind to it.