Remington Versa Max Challenge Series

[Jesse Tischauser]

if I'm reading the rules right, scoring will be stage points? If so, THANK YOU,

AMEN on stage points!

Did Christmas come early?

[roxymajor]

Hoping for for a few more stages this match. NOT singling out any match, but every one of the shotgun matches have shrank the number of stages the past couple of years. The last 2 day match I shot, we were finished at 10am, the second day.

[Headworked]

We did 18 stages at Benelli match... I'd like to see at least 12

[csole]

if I'm reading the rules right, scoring will be stage points? If so, THANK YOU,

AMEN on stage points!

Did Christmas come early?

No stage points...total time...

rules link: http://tarheel3gun.com/t3gn/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/VERSA-MAX-SERIES-RULES1.pdf

Edited December 3, 2014 by csole

[csole]

Yes, it is. Awesome to see Ty Gentry coming! As well as the usual array of top shooters like-all of them! Charles, I don't know if you're the best match director out there, but you're way ahead of whoever's in second place. The promotion emails, the reminders on Facebook and here, the ease of signing up and paying for the match. The user friendly attitude and your personal availability for questions is really amazing. I am not saying others are bad! It is just that with all the busy schedules we all have, it is nice to be reminded, the process streamlined, and the open nature of it make it a real pleasure. Thank you.

Also, Paul and the Atlanta3Gun crew are excellent as well-with very similar setup for their matches. Awesome!

Thanks for the kind words...at Tarheel3gun we understand one thing "customer service"..we are like anyone...we will make mistakes , we are not perfect but we believe in treating folks like they are "customers".....simple...

“Our greatest asset is the customer! Treat each customer as if they are the only one!”

As for the Paul and Chris and the ALT3GUN crew, they are awesome..they are knocking it out of the park at their deal. I am excited and fortunate to have them as partners on this venture. Both are class acts!

Edited December 3, 2014 by csole

[Jesse Tischauser]

if I'm reading the rules right, scoring will be stage points? If so, THANK YOU,

AMEN on stage points!

Did Christmas come early?

No stage points...total time...

Scrooge!

[Bryan 45]

Charles, doesn't that negate the value of short stages? I'm all for every stage being 60 seconds plus, but I understand the logistic issues with making that the case.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Bryan 45

[csole]

I have asked for an alternative but have yet to be provided one that is not subjective...randomly assigning 100 points to ever stage is not the answer. But i will consider any constructive and non personal/ emotional feedback. I am about building a better mouse trap, you do that with sound unemotional information.

Rules Mods are in the works and will be published Jan 1...certainly for this shotgun match the equipment portion will not change.

[Bryan 45]

For shotgun only, it could probably be based upon number of rounds. Yes, it's going to be a bit arbitrary, but at least it won't make the short stages nearly worthless. Even if the stage winner on an 8 round stage crushes it and wins the stage by 1 second, it's inconsequential in overall scores using total time.

Less than 10 rounds- 75 points

11-20 rounds- 100 points

>20 rounds- 125 points

[amccallister]

For shotgun only, it could probably be based upon number of rounds. Yes, it's going to be a bit arbitrary, but at least it won't make the short stages nearly worthless. Even if the stage winner on an 8 round stage crushes it and wins the stage by 1 second, it's inconsequential in overall scores using total time.

Less than 10 rounds- 75 points

11-20 rounds- 100 points

>20 rounds- 125 points

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[gnhowell1]

I really don't have a preference either way but shouldn't whoever shoots the match the fastest with all penalties included win?

Edited December 3, 2014 by gnhowell1

[mr50mag]

For shotgun only, it could probably be based upon number of rounds. Yes, it's going to be a bit arbitrary, but at least it won't make the short stages nearly worthless. Even if the stage winner on an 8 round stage crushes it and wins the stage by 1 second, it's inconsequential in overall scores using total time.

Less than 10 rounds- 75 points

11-20 rounds- 100 points

>20 rounds- 125 points

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Actually pretty far from reasonable.

Those points are purely subjective and are not based on a time the stage can and will be shot in.

I've seen a long 18rd field course shot in 28+ seconds and an extremely short 31rd ProAm stage shot in 22 seconds.

100/28=3.57

125/22=5.68

75/8=9.375 (your example)

The short stages are worth the same as every other stage in total time or it might cost you the whole match in points.

The proverbial red herring "what if my gun jams?" makes no difference in total time but will ruin your whole match in points on a small 8 second stage.

A 10 second jamb on a short or long stage equals 10 seconds at the end of your match but could cost you more than 50% of your stage points.

I like the idea that 5 seconds lost and 6 seconds gained puts me 1 second up rather than the 10 seconds in points gained on a long stage doesn't make up half the the points lost being 2 seconds down on a short stage.

At least with total time there is 1:1 ratio. 1 second equals 1 second no matter the size, targets or time it takes to shoot the stage.

Edited December 3, 2014 by mr50mag

[Benelli Chick]

Bryan 45's idea seems good for a shotgun match. I think the different scoring systems aren't random so much as a perspective. What do you see as the challenges?

I see each stage as the challenge.Short and fast (though never that short for us), long range rifle, transitions...whatever. We try to put together stages (as I'm sure you do) that are challenging in different ways. So, we like EQUAL points per stage for the different challenges. We don't want to value long range rifle more than run and gun pistol gullies or shotgun flying birds. We (and many others) chose 100 points because percentages are based on 100 points and if I get 54 points on a stage, I know I have shot 54% of the best shooter on that stage. Percents are something easy to wrap your head around.

Comstock scoring has the challenge as each target. Every target, gives you points...then's there's all that hit factor stuff... but basically, each target is the challenge...not the combination!

In total time scoring, the easy(fast) targets are kind of gimme's and you can't gain a lot on them...the long, hard targets are where you can make up a lot of time. I don't enjoy total time for the reasons many have listed...especially when stages are very different lengths, but I also dislike total time, because after I mess up a stage, I can not recover in ANY way from a penalty unless someone else messes up worse! I no longer have any control over my score. I must wait for someone to get an equal penalty.

In points per stage, if I mess up one stage, I can shoot awesome on the next stage and make up some ground because it's points per that stage. Others don't have to mess up for me to win (though it helps). I just have to shoot faster with less penalties. Everyone could shoot the next stage with no penalties at all, and I can still gain points on that stage to make up for ones I lost previously if I shoot well enough. In total time, if I get a 10 second penalty, everyone else needs to get one as well, for me to get back to even. I, personally, don't like having to rely on others to mess up!

I do understand the different overall value of a missed target between a short stage and a long stage in points system, and that's why Bryan 45's method can make those penalties more even, but allow MORE of a fresh start with each stage.

That being said, usually the top people still win in whatever scoring you want to use. I ran the numbers, and at the Lady 3-Gun, top 3 in all 4 divisions would've been the same either way. It's further down that things jumped around just a little bit. BUT, the stages were very similar in length. Wide time differences by stage will make the two scoring systems radically different!

All that being said, it's your match, and there is no one more supportive than me of you running your match with rules that work for you! The varied stage values have worked very well for Andy Horner and I think they were quite successful at FNH this year as well.

I think it's about what you perceive the challenge is...individual targets, stages, long range rifle or hard shots only or...and go with what rewards the kind of performance you think is most important.

But, I think points per stage is the most accurate way to judge MY performance in a wide variety of skills and combinations!

Denise (my $.02)

[mr50mag]

I really don't have a preference either way but shouldn't whoever shoots the match the fastest with all penalties included win?

Now that sounds reasonable.

Considering that time determines your place on the stage, all penalties for the match are in time and all your stage finishes combined equal your actual match finish where exactly do "points" fit in this equation?

[davehorn]

First off, I'm excited about the match.

I think the thing, at least for me, with stage points, it encourages you to really push on stages that complement your strengths, and does not penalize you as much for a crash. In total time matches, I think most (myself included), take a more conservative approach. Just don't crash, but I'm also not motivated to really hang it out for fear of a fatal mistake, a mistake which isn't near as harmful with stage points. I don't know how you reconcile those two approaches in scoring.

Either way, hell, we're shooting and keeping score. I'm happy.

[Jesse Tischauser]

For shotgun only, it could probably be based upon number of rounds. Yes, it's going to be a bit arbitrary, but at least it won't make the short stages nearly worthless. Even if the stage winner on an 8 round stage crushes it and wins the stage by 1 second, it's inconsequential in overall scores using total time.

Less than 10 rounds- 75 points

11-20 rounds- 100 points

>20 rounds- 125 points

That's the way the Rockcastle match does it. And it doesn't work. Too much emphasis on the quirky little stages. The best way is the way the Norduc match does it. 5 points per target. Each stage is worth the number of rounds fired. That's why the largest shotgun organization in the world, IPSC does it that way Edited December 3, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[P.E. Kelley]

All matters not for me...all three events would need me to use 48 hours of leave time each.

Damn it!

[Bryan 45]

All matters not for me...all three events would need me to use 48 hours of leave time each.

Damn it!

Don't you mean Dam it!

[Bryan 45]

For shotgun only, it could probably be based upon number of rounds. Yes, it's going to be a bit arbitrary, but at least it won't make the short stages nearly worthless. Even if the stage winner on an 8 round stage crushes it and wins the stage by 1 second, it's inconsequential in overall scores using total time.

Less than 10 rounds- 75 points

11-20 rounds- 100 points

>20 rounds- 125 points

That's the way the Rockcastle match does it. And it doesn't work. Too much emphasis on the quirky little stages. The best way is the way the Norduc match does it. 5 points per target. Each stage is worth the number of rounds fired. That's why the largest shotgun organization in the world, IPSC does it that way

Same concept, just a little more refined. But it would work well to keep the short stages of some value.

And the short stages can be fun, as long as there aren't too many (IE IPSC).

[ToysRUs]

I'm totally in support of Bryan, Denise and Jesse's ideas.

Denise explains my feelings to a tee about your ability to control your own match after a bad stage if your using points. Buck up, shoot faster and make up time.

If it's just time plus, hope really goes out the window. and the match just becomes depressing waiting for someone else to screw up.

For me if I have a time plus versus points match I can attend on the same weekend you will Not see me at the time plus match.

[Lead-Head]

I am glad to see a January match in the South. Cabin fever is starting to set in already here in KY and it is not even x-mas yet. I am excited. I have not shot my Nova in a match since.....April? Or cleaned it since then either.

As for scoring, I am a big proponent of a point based system. For the reasons stated above.

However, each MD makes their own mind up on how a match will run best.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I am glad to see a January match in the South. Cabin fever is starting to set in already here in KY and it is not even x-mas yet. I am excited. I have not shot my Nova in a match since.....April? Or cleaned it since then either.

Cheers to that! The first match is early enough where I can still sneak away from work for a weekend. I'll miss match number two. Then finish the series at the final match.

All I need to do now is figure out if I want to win $1000, $870, or $700.

I'm assuming shooters at the first match will get some sort of priority entry into a second match to complete their series?

How does the series scoring work? Cumulative points per match off percentage of each match winner? Closest to 200 points wins the series?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[roxymajor]

I will be there shooting unless there is a natural disaster between Lexington KY and Atlanta, no matter what the scoring. Great job Charles and the Tarheel gang this year.

I would like the opportunity to make up some finish spots after one of my patented cluster flops. "A..hole or hero" is my code.... and it sure don't work for straight time plus!!!

HOW about this.....

January is straight time plus.

March is points.

November is 5 points per target (/hit factor).

What ever! See you Jan 31st.

[Moltke]

Time plus is easy and penalties / misses count the same across the match (unweighted by stage). It's not forgiving to those who might make a mistake or have a unfortunate gear dump but it's straight up shooting.

[slymantis]

just curious, when will registration open up for the 2nd match?