jimbob_texas Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I had an epiphany last night, as I shot my first IDPA match since the new rules were published. After the MD did the equipment inspection, it became apparent that we're all a bunch of non-tactical gamers. I feel bad about that, so I've adopted a new philosophy. What Would Bill Do? This is my new guiding principle for IDPA, be it equipment, COF design, or general shooting philosophy. This will require commitment on my part. First, I'm going to need to sell my Glock with the kydex holster and "shorty" mag pouches, and invest in some good leather and a Wilson Custom Combat. I figure that stuff will NEVER be illegal in this sport. I checked my Wilson catalog, and it looks like I can get everything there - vests, hearing protection, mags, tools, etc. Life is simpler now. I encourage my brethren and sistren to do likewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Jimbob I would suspect you are a regular posting this under an alias if it were not for the fact that you used the word epiphany in a coherent sentence.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Hmmm ... has anyone seen Mr. Sunshine lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Hmmm ... has anyone seen Mr. Sunshine lately? Hehe - I just e mailed him after I read this post.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob_texas Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 Geez. What a cynical bunch. Can't a guy emote? Incidentally, have you folks read the stuff over at the Texican Tattler? Good junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 FWIW, my Wilson pouches (for Beretta mags) don't quite cover 50% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 The quickest way to solve all of the IDPA issues is to just make all members purchase their equipment from Wilson Combat. I do not own a single Wilson item. I got rid of my Wilson mags a couple of years ago. I use McCormick mags instead. They do not work quite as well, but I will not use any Wilson products. I still will not purchase a Toshiba product after they sold the Russians equipment in the '80s to make quiet props for their subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 The quickest way to solve all of the IDPA issues is to just make all members purchase their equipment from Wilson Combat. I do not own a single Wilson item. I got rid of my Wilson mags a couple of years ago. I use McCormick mags instead. They do not work quite as well, but I will not use any Wilson products.I still will not purchase a Toshiba product after they sold the Russians equipment in the '80s to make quiet props for their subs. Hahahaha Joe, you kill me. Here's some stuff for you to boycott: Choose The Blue Go wild with it baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Oh for God's sake. I get really, really tired of all this "Bill Wilson is in it for the money" stuff. If that was his goal, he really did a piss-poor job of it. How many shooters at the last IDPA Nationals fired Wilson guns? If memory serves me correctly, the answer is: two. Holster sales make up about 2% of Wilson's business, and are offered as more of a service to customers than anything else. No, most Wilson holsters will never be illegal, but that's because they were designed from the ground up to be real world concealment rigs. When all most of the "martial artist" contingent could do was bitch and whine about being treated like unwanted psychos by USPSA/IPSC, Bill Wilson, with a group of likeminded individuals, actually started up a entire new "combat handgun" sport for shooters to compete with street guns and street gear, under rules designed expressly to stop IDPA from ever devolving (or evolving, depending on your point of view) into IPSC run 'n' gun. And his "thank you" has been incessant complaints, and totally baseless accusations of wrongdoing, from people who wouldn't even have a sport to complain about if it weren't for him. Get real, people. I'm not saying Bill Wilson is a perfect human being with silver hands, but he certainly deserves better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Duane, BREATHE. In/out/in/out slowly. It's okay buddy. FYI on your sig line ad Zen or they never will get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Thank you Duane for articulating what many of us have tried to say (albeit poorly) in the past. geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Really, Duane, tell us how you feel! Don't hold back!!! Ha ha! I agree with DT. I really don't think Bill is in it for the $$$, at least not via Wilson Combat directly in product sales. But, at the same time, IDPA is not a not-for-profit organization either. It does open things up to questions, though. What I really think Bill Wilson, et al really suffer from is a lack of perspective in terms of the way they approached the re-write of the rules. I understand IDPA not wanting to evolve (is how I look at it Duane, ) into IPSC/USPSA, but the paranoid tones the rules have taken have made things difficult for IDPA's patrons to understand, much less apply. As I understand it, part of the original spirit of the game, stated or not, was to keep things simple (off the shelf guns and gear, factory ammo, low round counts, etc.) In my opinion the addition of subjective rules regarding holsters isn't keeping things simple. Not doing ones homework regarding revolver weights isn't simple. Subjectivity cannot be applied uniformly or fairly. If that is the way they want it, fine. Good for them and good luck to them. This rule book is Bill Wilson's (along with others who wrote with/for him) opinion. For those who's opinions follow Mr. Wilson's, no worries. For those who don't? I think the Jury is still out. As for me. I'll still shoot local matches when I have time. It's trigger time and I like the local people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Merlin I am auditing this post...no response....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJONES5 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Well at FWCDPC MATCH on 1/9/2005 we had 39 IDPA shooters including a Grand Master USPSA shooter and a Master and all had a great time shooting,on 1/15/2005 at Lakeland Defense club they had 30 plus Shooters and ALL all had a great time shooting IDPA. I don't know about the Keyboard Commandos but here in Fl we have fun shooting IDPA. Pat Jones MD FWCDPC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 And isn't that what it's all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 While I'll agree with Duane, I don't believe Bill Wilson is in it for the money. I also have to agree with Big Dave, IDPA is a Business! I have Wilson Combat Magazines, Parts, and even a couple holsters. I use them because they work. I do not however use his Mag Pouches, I have a couple of the leather covered kydex pouches. The first time I used them at an IDPA match, I had my magazines fall out numerous times. No big deal, I just stopped using them. Ok, Duane and Others, all this talk about “Real World” here’s the Big Question I have: How many of you out there carry a gun everyday? In the real world? I’ll start off, I DO! Living in California makes it a little more challenging! I am not a Law Enforcement Officer, I’m just a working guy, who believes in his right to protect his family and himself! We still need to remember this is a game. Hopefully none of us will have to use our guns to protect our families or ourselves. But, if we do it most likely will not go down with us knowing how many bad guys there are, their exact position, how many rounds it will take to neutralize the threats, where and when we will need to reload. Will someone ask us if we have any questions, let us tell them we’re ready? Most likely, NO. If any of us are involved in using our gun to protect ourselves, do we have a better chance of coming out with our life because we shoot IDPA? I believe we do. But again agreeing with Bid Dave, it’s about the trigger time, any trigger time is good! Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Oh for God's sake. I get really, really tired of all this "Bill Wilson is in it for the money" stuff. If that was his goal, he really did a piss-poor job of it. How many shooters at the last IDPA Nationals fired Wilson guns? If memory serves me correctly, the answer is: two. Holster sales make up about 2% of Wilson's business, and are offered as more of a service to customers than anything else. No, most Wilson holsters will never be illegal, but that's because they were designed from the ground up to be real world concealment rigs. When all most of the "martial artist" contingent could do was bitch and whine about being treated like unwanted psychos by USPSA/IPSC, Bill Wilson, with a group of likeminded individuals, actually started up a entire new "combat handgun" sport for shooters to compete with street guns and street gear, under rules designed expressly to stop IDPA from ever devolving (or evolving, depending on your point of view) into IPSC run 'n' gun. And his "thank you" has been incessant complaints, and totally baseless accusations of wrongdoing, from people who wouldn't even have a sport to complain about if it weren't for him. Get real, people. I'm not saying Bill Wilson is a perfect human being with silver hands, but he certainly deserves better than this. Venting sometimes does a man good......................anyway, your comments are very to the point ( a point many outside of IDPA do not understand ), preventing the sport from devolving/evolving into something other than a practical shooting sport for using everyday carry guns and equipment. I also applaud Bill for his clarifications letter on the IDPA website. Bill, while there may be a couple hundred IDPA members who don't like the new rules for whatever reason, the other 11,800 appreciate your efforts. My renewals are also on the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ( "a point many outside of IDPA do not understand' ) Is IDPA some all knowing cult? What is Practical shooting anyway? As a person who shoots many different shooting sports, I have always viewed IDPA as more Tactical than Practical. But hey, I must not be part of the all knowing cult. I understand the intent of the sport and accept it and try to abide by the rules. Why when you see a big match covered on TV the top shooters seem to be USPSA shooters that come over? Maybe BW and the rest of the BOD have lost sight of the fact that this is a competition. The rules on equipment as a whole are pretty good in defining the different divisions, some parts of the rules are simply dumb and make no sense. They just promote range nazis. Leveling the playing field by dumbing down the equipment and stages, just makes people not practice and strive to do better. The phrase "I Don't Practice Anymore" didn't come out of the blue. There are some pretty poor shooters that shoot this sport(and all others), I feel that IDPA does not strive enought to improve gun handling skills. The fact that IDPA strives not to become another IPSC type of shooting sport only hurts IDPA. IDPA needs to define itself as a tactical shooting sport and produce rules that take it to be a highly competitve tactical shooting sport. Why have rules if you can't be competitive. I have no issues with someone calling me competitive, or that I shoot every stage trying to win(I usually don't). I look for whatever advantage I can get. And you can bet your ass, if I ever was in the situation where I needed a gun, I would look for any advantages that present themselves. I think the fact that with plenty of practice both on the range and in competition actions like shooting fast, reloading, clearing jams, shooting accurately on the move, dealing with the mental anxiety of shooting a stage can only help. I was planning on joining IDPA this year and shooting more matches. After viewing the format that these new rules were delivered and BW official response, I will not join. I will still shoot the monthly matches at my home club and a few others in the area that understand the fun factor. And for the record - I do not carry a gun every day, but when I do it is a full size government model with a bull barrel in an illegal holster(at least in the mind of some). OK, give me a FTDR for not thinking like BW and I will shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ( "a point many outside of IDPA do not understand' )I was planning on joining IDPA this year and shooting more matches. After viewing the format that these new rules were delivered and BW official response, I will not join. I will still shoot the monthly matches at my home club and a few others in the area that understand the fun factor. And for the record - I do not carry a gun every day, but when I do it is a full size government model with a bull barrel in an illegal holster(at least in the mind of some). OK, give me a FTDR for not thinking like BW and I will shut up. Yawn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsapper Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ...Why have rules keep score if you can't be competitive. ... Fixed it for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Ok, Duane and Others, all this talk about “Real World” here’s the Big Question I have:How many of you out there carry a gun everyday? In the real world? I do. And it's always been the same gun, holster and mag pouch that I use in IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 DT, I haven't seen this question asked and I hope it will be taken seriously. I have seen and heard the accusations about profit and the motives that go along with it. However, I have never seen a quantifiable response that would suggest otherwise. The only response even from BW himself is that there is no profit motive. Can anyone give us an approximate breakdown of the budget for IDPA? I have emailed HQ with this question and received no answer. With 12,000 members at $35/yr IDPA starts with an annual budget of $420,000. That does not take into account yearly club affiliation dues, nor corporate sponsor dues, which I would assume adds a significant amount to budget. I cannot imagine that in an organization based largely on volunteer effort that there is not a profit to be made. The easiest way to quell these rumors would be to simply give an accounting of the budget, yet BW will not do so. I agree that since it is his privately held business he is under no obligation to publish this info, but if those who keep telling us that he is not making money want to quash the accusations, it should be a no brainer to step up and open the books. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I agree that since it is his privately held business he is under no obligation to publish this info I guess that says it all. If someone thought they had the right to examine my tax returns and financial records to make sure that I'm not - horror of horrors - actually making a profit off a business venture, I'd tell them to take a hike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 DT, As long as that is the case then it's time to quit defending BW everytime the fact that he is making money off of this venture comes up. If he is not willing to give the membership some idea of the yearly budget then he is fair game when he claims that his profit from IDPA is zero. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 DT, As long as that is the case then it's time to quit defending BW everytime the fact that he is making money off of this venture comes up. If he is not willing to give the membership some idea of the yearly budget then he is fair game when he claims that his profit from IDPA is zero. Craig I am not a member, but I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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