finger out of the trigger guard on reloads

[cpa5oh]

Hoping someone might have a mental cue that can ensure I never get my finger in the trigger guard again on a mag change...

Long story short, I've been shooting for 2 years a a couple of months. As I worked to improve and got into trying to be faster on stages and in gun handling I assumed safe gun handling was ingrained. Then I had an AD mag changing in practice, which I mentally wrote off as being related to shooting a new gun and being a little out of control. Then I had an AD with a gun I am very familiar with at a major match. I did at least 6,000 mag changes in the month that followed, most focused entirely on keeping my finger out of the trigger guard. Shot a few matches in a very safety conscious, super controlled and slow manner. Stepped on the gas in practice this past Saturday and BANG - AD during a mag change.

All three AD's occurred as I was hitting the mag release button. I think that at times I don't break my shooting grip for the mag change...and sometimes the finger stays in the trigger guard. If I consciously think about having my finger out, it's out. The problems with that are that I'm uncompetitive running around thinking about not AD'ing and I go through stages/reps where I don't recall consciously having my mind on where my finger is when I'm hitting the mag release - and it scares the shit out of me.

Anybody have any thoughts on how I might make sure my finger is always out of the trigger guard? Seems like it should be really simple...but head trash can be a mountain.

[eric4069]

if right handed could consider switching the mag release button to the right side of the gun and using your trigger finger to push the mag release button.

(as I and many left-handers do with the mag release button at the usual left side location)

Eric

[jester121]

I like eric's idea. You need to take drastic action so you stop having Negligent Discharges.

[Dirty Rod]

Rather than thinking about getting my finger out of the trigger guard I focus on making sure I put it on a specific spot on the side of the slide. Even though It's automatic now I can feel the end of the slide stop every time I think about my trigger finger. It definitely helps me.

[Sarge]

Rub some viagra on that finger! You have got to straighten it out.

What division are you shooting? If your division allows it put a small piece of skateboard tape where the tip of your finger hits the slide when straight. If you are not feeling that tape during reloads or movement you will get a mental cue to touch it.

[leath4m]

I consciously always put my finger along side the frame when not actively engaging targets. Establish a "memory" point for your trigger finger. And tell yourself to ALWAYS use that point. Use this when you pull it out of your pistol case, when cleaning, disassembling, dry fire practice, etc. every time your hand wraps around that grip. Except for that last 2-3" in your draw stroke. Then it's game on. Good luck.

[cpa5oh]

Thanks for the replies, all great ideas.

As far as reversing the mag release - never thought about that. I do have a Gen 4 Glock now and could try it...but I think I'd be afraid that if I overshot the mag release I'd be in the trigger guard...

Shooting in the Production division - no skate tape allowed. But frames of all of the guns I have do have a distinguishable spot to put the trigger finger. That was part of my plan/focus during the 6,000 reloads...then again, until this weekend I hadn't identified that it was specifically when I was pushing the mag release that the AD was happening. Maybe that plus knowing exactly when the problem is occurring will do the trick.

[Sandbagger123]

Do you have the finger issue when moving between arrays? most of the mag NDs i have seen or heard second hand have been after the mags is seated and then their finger is getting ready too early to engage the target.

[cpa5oh]

All 3 AD's happened as I was pushing the mag release button with my thumb...then after that my finger is naturally flat on the frame. I don't have an issue with AD's as I'm getting back on target.

[alma]

Someone mentioned this but try explicitly bringing your finger out and resting (or at least touching) it on the frame above your trigger. I seem to have made it a habit to do this at the same time as push the magazine release with my thumb. In your dry fire practice focus on where that finger is during your reloads. It will take a lot of repetitions to break old habits.

Edited August 5, 2014 by alma

[NoSteel]

When you do your mag change is the pistol up and in front of your face?? Is the muzzle directly down range or canted to the left slightly?? I have long fingers and had to insure I was in my face when doing a reload to aid insuring finger was out of the guard. When doing a mag change lower than chest level for some reason it is just natural to have my trigger finger in the guard, not sure why.. Still do it, but I consciously catch myself.... Hat cam or friends video would aid in what the culprit is..

[cpa5oh]

Thank you for the video! You kick your finger way out of there...and I think I do that 5,999/6,000 times, and that isn't good enough. I'll keep working at it.

[cpa5oh]

When you do your mag change is the pistol up and in front of your face?? Is the muzzle directly down range or canted to the left slightly?? I have long fingers and had to insure I was in my face when doing a reload to aid insuring finger was out of the guard. When doing a mag change lower than chest level for some reason it is just natural to have my trigger finger in the guard, not sure why.. Still do it, but I consciously catch myself.... Hat cam or friends video would aid in what the culprit is..

That's interesting - I do not mag change with the pistol up and out of my face...I do it with my right forearm in tight to my body and the muzzle is pointed slightly up and left. The mag button pushing happens as I'm bringing the pistol in. I had that thought that it seems easier to ensure the finger is up on the frame if the gun is upright when I push the mag button but I let it pass...now that you mention it, I need to give that more consideration.

[g34]

For the time being I think the most important thing is to slow down and make sure that you are aware of the exact position of your trigger finger every time you do a reload. You can't pull the trigger if your finger is out of the trigger guard. That's not to say that you shouldn't be working on technique, but until the AD's go away, speed shouldn't be a priority. Taking a video like alma posted might help you figure out how you're finger is getting on the trigger.

[cpa5oh]

Here's a quick, crappy video I just took 5 minutes ago of how I reload. Excuse the stupid Affliction shirt from 10 years ago that I wear to bed...

I wasn't trying to push speed in this reload - and I've basically done 6,000 reloads just like this in live and dry fire in the last month and a half. Maybe there's something inherently dangerous about how I'm doing it.

Edited August 6, 2014 by cpa5oh

[wgj3]

I would argue that maybe you're reaching harder than you realize to get to your release button. In that stretch, you clench your grip to make sure you reach the release and maintain control of the pistol and in that clench you experience the ND.

[alma]

Not related to the finger but you have three distinct segments to your reload that you should be trying to smooth out or eliminate. You are absolutely bringing the gun maybe just a bit too close.

[cpa5oh]

wgj3, I could definitely see it being the case that, when I don't break grip and get the gun in position to easily reach the mag release with my thumb, exactly what you described happens. I don't know exactly how to avoid that from ever happening, but I think you've hit it.

Edited August 6, 2014 by cpa5oh

[cpa5oh]

Thank you Alma...that may explain why when I struggle to get beneath 1.20 on my reloads where everyone's saying that to be a high level gun handler the reload needs to be down near 1.00. I actually never saw my own reload until I did that video tonight.

The reason I bring the gun in like that is because most reloads happen while moving and I feel like the closer I have it to my body the more "braced" the magwell is. The less my arm is connected to my body the less I get the mag up in there cleanly. I can change it, though - especially if there's additional safety in not bringing the gun in close. To clarify, though, the AD's have happened probably at the first 1/3 of the period where I pull the gun in and hit the mag release - I'm pretty comfortable once I get beyond dropping the spent mag (as far as being safe.)

[twodownzero]

I would practice on getting the gun higher on your reloads. It won't help you refine your technique but it will force you to look at what you're doing more easily and that alone might help you perform the right motor functions.

I have never even come close to having an AD during a reload so if it has happened to you that many times, something is seriously wrong with your technique. Make sure you are not practicing bad habits in dry fire.

[g34]

Do you know what part of your reload the AD's usually occur? It's tough to be sure from the video, but it almost looks like your pressing the magazine release with your trigger finger on it's way out of the trigger guard. Maybe when your're going quickly your trigger finger squeezes inward along with the thumb before the trigger finger is indexed along the slide.

[g34]

It looks like you answered my question while I was typing. If it's happening in the first part of the reload your finger may not be out of the trigger guard yet.

[cpa5oh]

Yeah I think wjg3 hit it - if the gun isn't in the right position in my hand to get to the mag release without reaching, I reach and the rest of my hand tightens/curls to allow that thumb to reach further. And that doesn't happen often...happens a couple of times per 10,000 reloads - but that's not good enough it can't ever happen.

Edited August 6, 2014 by cpa5oh

[alma]

Yeah, it looks super robotic. Smooth those motions out. None of this multi stage stuff. Move our support hand down as soon as possible and snatch your mag out of there. Don't waste time with your hand on the mag in the pouch. The long pole in the tent is usually getting that mag out, up, and in so that's not a bad place to focus.

[Jshuberg]

Keep the gun high during the reload, your gun should be just below your target in basically the high ready position. You should pull it in towards yourself into a comfortable position where it's angled slightly away from the target. Dont reload your gun at the same height you eat your speghetti at. You should always have the target in your field of view just above your gun whenever your're working on it. If you can't see the target in the background, you're too low.

Bottom line is that your doing things slightly out of order - you're racing your thumb to the mag release as quickly as possible, and some times it beats your finger and sympathetic muscle motion is causing you to squeeze the trigger inadvertantly - BANG. The speed of your reload isn't determined by how fast you hit the button, it's how *smoothly* you can get the new mag up to the gun. This is likely exacerbated by where your hands are. When you bring your hands down low, there is a tendency to tighten your hand muscles, especially under stress. Think of pulling down on a rope, your hands tighten as you pull downward/inward. If your not getting your finger clear of the trigger guard before you begin tightening your hands - BANG.

I'd suggest a couple things as a fix:

1) Practice moving the finger *before* hitting the mag release. Emphasise not even touching the mag release until your finger is up on the frame, and put it higher on the frame than normal. Exaggerate it during training so your subconscious understands that you need to get it out of the way first. While it's perfectly normal to eventually do these motions almost simultaneously, you need to keep them distinctly separate until you are no longer dangerous.

2) Cant your gun at a greater angle when performing a reload. It's slightly faster to keep the gun pointed at the target, but you need to sacrifice speed for safety until you've got safety down. Somewhere around 50-60*, or at an angle where you can see if your finger is still in the trigger guard. What you're looking for is to see an empty trigger guard *before* hitting the mag release. It only takes a faction of a second longer, but you want to visually verify your finger is clear before hitting the mag release.

3) Keep your reload high. This will lessen the subconscious tendency to squeeze your hand muscles when pulling your hands down and in. In the case where you get the order wrong and hit the mag release without seeing an empty trigger guard, avoiding a motion that has a tendency to cause you to squeeze your hand even further should help. Also note that this is the preferred location to do any work on your gun anyway.

You need to be willing to sacrifice speed for safety. Once reloading this way becomes smooth and fluid, being working on keeping the gun on target rather than canting it. You'll lose your visual cue that the trigger guard is empty, but once you've trained on it enough you shouldn't need to see it anymore. You can also eventually begin moving your thumb and finger at the same time in one fluid movement, so long as that your finger is clear before you actually start pressing the button.

hope this helps.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Jshuberg