Joe D Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) I have been testing a new powder for 9mm,.40 and .45ACP. As we all know pistol powder is tough to find. I printed a burn rate chart and started looking for something close to Clays. Alliant Promo has met my needs. The burn rate chart is not exactly correct as Promo is listed as faster then Clays. In actual testing I have found you need a little more Promo to get the same fps. Example - out of my G35 180 gr lead bullet with stock barrel 2.4 gr of Clays and 3.0 gr of S1000 both make an average fps of 718 - 720. It requires 2.7 of Promo to do the same. I suspect most of these burn rate charts are approximate as I doubt a closed bomb test is used. Edited July 25, 2014 by Joe D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJE Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Promo is about the same as Red Dot isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I don't think you can infer the speed of a powder from the amount used in a load. I could be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrohuck Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Promo is about the same as Red Dot isn't it? ^^ This is what I've been lead to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterthefish Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I don't think you can infer the speed of a powder from the amount used in a load. I could be wrong That is correct. Energy density of the powder also has to be taken into consideration. VV publishes theirs. Not sure about Hodgdon / Alliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Promo is about the same as Red Dot isn't it? Promo is red dot without the red flakes. Alliant states on their website to use red dot load data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJE Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Promo is about the same as Red Dot isn't it? Promo is red dot without the red flakes. Alliant states on their website to use red dot load data. Good to know. I wonder why they put it out as a different powder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I have been testing a new powder for 9mm,.40 and .45ACP. As we all know pistol powder is tough to find. I printed a burn rate chart and started looking for something close to Clays. Alliant Promo has met my needs. The burn rate chart is not exactly correct as Promo is listed as faster then Clays. In actual testing I have found you need a little more Promo to get the same fps. Example - out of my G35 180 gr lead bullet with stock barrel 2.4 gr of Clays and 3.0 gr of S1000 both make an average fps of 718 - 720. It requires 2.7 of Promo to do the same. I suspect most of these burn rate charts are approximate as I doubt a closed bomb test is used. How clean is it? Any residue or other issues related to using if for PF levels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 You can NOT infer charge weight based on rank in a burn rate chart. I have been testing a new powder for 9mm,.40 and .45ACP. As we all know pistol powder is tough to find. I printed a burn rate chart and started looking for something close to Clays. Alliant Promo has met my needs. The burn rate chart is not exactly correct as Promo is listed as faster then Clays. In actual testing I have found you need a little more Promo to get the same fps. Example - out of my G35 180 gr lead bullet with stock barrel 2.4 gr of Clays and 3.0 gr of S1000 both make an average fps of 718 - 720. It requires 2.7 of Promo to do the same. I suspect most of these burn rate charts are approximate as I doubt a closed bomb test is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Hello: Just to let you know Promo burns dirty in a shotgun, I have not tried it in a pistol. Also it can very a little lot to lot so chrono it. Red Dot burns cleaner than Promo in a shotgun. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstagn Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Alliant e-3 takes just about the same charge weight as Clays, 1/2 tenth either way for the same PF. Burns clean too. Using this till I can find some Clays, recoil seems a very little stiffer but its very close....45acp.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted July 25, 2014 Author Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) You can NOT infer charge weight based on rank in a burn rate chart. I have been testing a new powder for 9mm,.40 and .45ACP. As we all know pistol powder is tough to find. I printed a burn rate chart and started looking for something close to Clays. Alliant Promo has met my needs. The burn rate chart is not exactly correct as Promo is listed as faster then Clays. In actual testing I have found you need a little more Promo to get the same fps. Example - out of my G35 180 gr lead bullet with stock barrel 2.4 gr of Clays and 3.0 gr of S1000 both make an average fps of 718 - 720. It requires 2.7 of Promo to do the same. I suspect most of these burn rate charts are approximate as I doubt a closed bomb test is used. Why not? I am very new to reloading. Only been reloading for 40 years. BTW you do know what a closed bomb test is. BTW burn rate/powder charge weight/ velocity appears to track on all the powders I use = Clays, S1000 and Promo. Edited July 25, 2014 by Joe D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterthefish Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Promo is about the same as Red Dot isn't it? Promo is red dot without the red flakes. Alliant states on their website to use red dot load data. Good to know. I wonder why they put it out as a different powder? Promo does not have a consistent density from lot to lot. So for every lot you need to see what bushing to use (or readjust your powder measure) to get the same throw weight. It is cheaper to produce because there is no need to control a consistent density. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 1. Different companies rank the burn rates differently, therefore whatever numbers they're using for the rank, they aren't using the same numbers. 2. You just provided evidence that you can't trust the burn rate chart. Hodgdon ranks Longshot (rank 53) as slower burning than AA#7 (rank 51). If I inferred that I could use the same charge weight for both powders, or even a larger charge weight with Longshot because it's slower burning, I'd be in trouble. Accurate list a max load of 11.0 grains of AA#7 for a 115 grain lead bullet in the 38 Super. If I used 11.0 grain of Longshot, I'd most likely blow up the gun. Hodgdon lists a max of 7.3 grain of Longshot with a 115 grain lead bullet. By the way, the Vihtavuori guide lists Longshot as faster than AA#7, equal to N340. But the Hodgdon list shows N340 at rank # 37. I've only been reloading for 40 years too. You can NOT infer charge weight based on rank in a burn rate chart. I have been testing a new powder for 9mm,.40 and .45ACP. As we all know pistol powder is tough to find. I printed a burn rate chart and started looking for something close to Clays. Alliant Promo has met my needs. The burn rate chart is not exactly correct as Promo is listed as faster then Clays. In actual testing I have found you need a little more Promo to get the same fps. Example - out of my G35 180 gr lead bullet with stock barrel 2.4 gr of Clays and 3.0 gr of S1000 both make an average fps of 718 - 720. It requires 2.7 of Promo to do the same. I suspect most of these burn rate charts are approximate as I doubt a closed bomb test is used. Why not? I am very new to reloading. Only been reloading for 40 years. BTW you do know what a closed bomb test is. BTW burn rate/powder charge weight/ velocity appears to track on all the powders I use = Clays, S1000 and Promo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I also recently picked up some Promo for the first time. I got it primarily because I wanted to load .380 (just got a Glock 42) and wasn't happy with the powders I had for that. Since I have a bunch of it now, I'm curious to try it in all my other handgun loads. So far, I've only loaded .380 with it (following Red Dot data), and it seems to do reasonably well there. What press are you using, and have you had any trouble getting consistent 2.7gr charges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandof Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I've been loading Promo in 9/40/45 for the last couple of years due to availability. It does a decent job in pistol calibers. It is dirty, and difficult to meter consistantly below 3.5 gns or so in a Dillon or Lee Pro Auto Disk measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 I load on a Dillon 550. I use the extra small charge bar with an aquarium pump strapped to the powder thrower. It did not throw very well with the small charge bar. SD I never said I totally trusted burn rate charts. They can be used as a guide, not absolute truth. Last night I threw 20 charges into 9mm cases and weighed each one. I use a Redding #2 to weigh. None of the 20 charges varied more than half the width of the beam pointer from the zero mark. I am not saying it is a great powder, just an alternative in today's crazy powder shortage. Rob, I don't find it to be excessively dirty. Remember I shoot lead bullets only. My two favorite powders are Clays and S1000. I have about 12 lbs of each. One day I would like to try WST, but considering there is only one ball powder manufacturer in this hemisphere good luck finding any. Maybe I should just drive down to Saint Marks Powder Co. in Saint Marks, FL and get a "sample" 8 lb jug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I guess I'll order the x-small bar and maybe look into something to vibrate the hopper. Loading the little bit of .380 I've done so far, with charges around 2.9gr, I get the expected charge most of the time and the occasional 20% reduced charge. Since 2.9 nearly fills a .380 case, the light charges are reasonably obvious, but I don't like having to eyeball guestimate each powder charge in the cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 (edited) Just strap this to your powder thrower. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Aqua-Culture-5-15-Gallon-Single-Outlet-Aquarium-Air-Pump-1-Ct-Fish-Aquatic-Pets/10532632 I bent a coat hanger and attached one end to the pump and the other into the vent hole of the thrower aluminum top. I also use an elastic strap to pull the pump against the aluminum bottom of the thrower. Don't tighten it too tight. There are micro vibrators, but they are mostly DC. Darn where is Nikola Tesla when I need him. Amazon has dozens of them. Edited July 26, 2014 by Joe D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebg3 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Alliant "cleaned up" their shotgun/pistol powders a few years ago and I think Promo is the old Red Dot(without the red flakes ?). As stated earlier, it is suggested to use Red Dot data to start with Promo. Red Dot was a little smokey and sooty for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Desk Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Clay Dot is a direct replacement for Clays..... It is slightly more forgiving than Clays in the way that it builds pressure and is less prone to pressure leading when using lead boolits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 How does the flake size of Clay Dot compare to Clays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Desk Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Same size as far as I can tell, I just tip the Clays out and fill up with Clay Dot. Usually within a tenth of each other when I weigh the charges. Clay Dot is a bit more user friendly in that it doesn't seem to spike as quickly as Clays, and it seems softer in the hand. Very clean and reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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