Glock 21 brass failure

[peterthefish]

ah. ok propagation of misinformation.

That's me, using logic and facts to propagate misinformation...

I said it was my guess. Iffin I had the pistol in hand, I would not be guessing.

So you want me mention how to use a pencil to test if a firing pin will strike?

you seem pretty knowledgeable why don't you tell us your test?

saami specs are interesting. There is only one spec that would concern me here.

How far back can the case be in the chamber and still allow the pistol to fire.

I am a big believer in the simplest answer is usually the answer.

so real quick

what causes case failures?

unsupported cases

too much power

weak cases from corrosion

Corrosion usually produces 2 piece case failures.

that case looks pretty straight for a corrosion failure.

you can also see the stamp mark of the chamber edge.

He said he KNOWS the was no double charge.

that leaves unsupported...

This pistol should be checked.

Some one else here mentioned another type of barrel as a fix.

I don't know about you but I don't shoot pencils out of my guns. I shoot bullets which are propelled by a powder charge ignited by a primer. So I use primed cases in my test.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "How far back can the case be in the chamber and still allow the pistol to fire." Are you assuming an open chamber here?

Corrosion usually produces 2 piece case failures? Really? And those are the only causes? No possibility the brass was work hardened excessively, defective, or previously bulged with an excessively hot load?

Let's take a look at the primer strike. Looks pretty centered to me. Now, since the barrel drops when the slide unlocks (ie goes "Out of Battery), we know that had it fired OOB the primer strike would be well off center. It's not. In fact, it's exactly in the same place as primer strikes made by my Glock .45. Which, by the way, will not lock into battery with even a .004 shim between the back of the locking block and the slide.

Just like in House the answer is never lupus, the answer here is almost never OOB.

Everyone knows they didn't double charge. Just like no kabooms are ever caused by reloads - it's always the last round in a box of factory ammo with the box long since thrown away.

But N310 is a fast powder with poor case fill in a 45 under a heavy bullet where small variations in charge weight would not be apparent but could be catastrophic.

Edited July 18, 2014 by peterthefish

[Steve RA]

The primer looks fine, not overpressured. I'd vote for weak case and Glock barrels not offering as much support as some others.

[Miranda]

ah. ok propagation of misinformation.

That's me, using logic and facts to propagate misinformation...

I said it was my guess. Iffin I had the pistol in hand, I would not be guessing.

So you want me mention how to use a pencil to test if a firing pin will strike?

you seem pretty knowledgeable why don't you tell us your test?

saami specs are interesting. There is only one spec that would concern me here.

How far back can the case be in the chamber and still allow the pistol to fire.

I am a big believer in the simplest answer is usually the answer.

so real quick

what causes case failures?

unsupported cases

too much power

weak cases from corrosion

Corrosion usually produces 2 piece case failures.

that case looks pretty straight for a corrosion failure.

you can also see the stamp mark of the chamber edge.

He said he KNOWS the was no double charge.

that leaves unsupported...

This pistol should be checked.

Some one else here mentioned another type of barrel as a fix.

I don't know about you but I don't shoot pencils out of my guns. I shoot bullets which are propelled by a powder charge ignited by a primer. So I use primed cases in my test.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "How far back can the case be in the chamber and still allow the pistol to fire." Are you assuming an open chamber here?

Corrosion usually produces 2 piece case failures? Really? And those are the only causes? No possibility the brass was work hardened excessively, defective, or previously bulged with an excessively hot load?

Let's take a look at the primer strike. Looks pretty centered to me. Now, since the barrel drops when the slide unlocks (ie goes "Out of Battery), we know that had it fired OOB the primer strike would be well off center. It's not. In fact, it's exactly in the same place as primer strikes made by my Glock .45. Which, by the way, will not lock into battery with even a .004 shim between the back of the locking block and the slide.

Just like in House the answer is never lupus, the answer here is almost never OOB.

Everyone knows they didn't double charge. Just like no kabooms are ever caused by reloads - it's always the last round in a box of factory ammo with the box long since thrown away.

But N310 is a fast powder with poor case fill in a 45 under a heavy bullet where small variations in charge weight would not be apparent but could be catastrophic.

oh dear! I am skewered! There is no escape! I am doomed!

Your gun does not fire out of battery! There is definite proof!

hohohohohohohohoh

I like my jokes.

Hi peterthefish,

After having read your post three times I think I begin to see what you have been saying.

Correct me if this is somehow wrong. (I have no doubt you will...)

I believe you meant this as sarcasm:

"Everyone knows they didn't double charge. Just like no kabooms are ever caused by reloads - it's always the last round in a box of factory ammo with the box long since thrown away."

Sarcasm leaves a lot to be desired in communication. Using it means I have to guess what you meant.

as far as I can tell your whole post boils down to this.

To translate it; as best I am able,

"OP needs to man-up and admit he double-charged. There is lots of prior evidence that is exactly what he did."

Ok, you have made your guess. please back up your guess with evidence.

Bellyaching at me about my guess will not add to the stack of proof you need to

elevate your guess to most likely cause.

miranda

[polymerfeelsweirdman]

I am voting for weak case. Firing out of battery is pretty tough to make happen in a Glock and the Glock barrel is not that unsupported

I think a pic of the barrel might be useful

[Miranda]

while yall was talking I went into my basement

and cut a CBC 45 auto case in half.

( it was harder to do than I expected )

you can blame a weak case if you want.

most of the case can't hold up to launching a 45 round.

So the question begins to arise where on the brass case can you expect

to hold the 23k PSI ?

(this site says 23,000 psi...http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm)

from what I see the extraction groove ends at just about the same height

as the bottom of the case interior.

this leads me to think the chamber should support the case

up to the extraction groove.

you, of course, may think otherwise.

so what do you think is a good plan of action?

build a chamber that is close to the weak limits of the case

and make sure the case is a far back in the chamber as possible?

I think I can see enough tolerance addition to get to the weak edge of the case.

miranda

miranda

[peterthefish]

while yall was talking I went into my basement

and cut a CBC 45 auto case in half.

( it was harder to do than I expected )

you can blame a weak case if you want.

most of the case can't hold up to launching a 45 round.

So the question begins to arise where on the brass case can you expect

to hold the 23k PSI ?

(this site says 23,000 psi...http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm)

from what I see the extraction groove ends at just about the same height

as the bottom of the case interior.

this leads me to think the chamber should support the case

up to the extraction groove.

you, of course, may think otherwise.

so what do you think is a good plan of action?

build a chamber that is close to the weak limits of the case

and make sure the case is a far back in the chamber as possible?

I think I can see enough tolerance addition to get to the weak edge of the case.

miranda

miranda

I see you are continuing with reading comprehension issues. Aside from your gross mischaracterization of my prior post, 23K PSI is the 45 +P spec.

But I think you're really on to something here. Maybe you should take a pic of that case you cut and send it to Glock. They've probably never seen one before - this could help them understand how the brass looks and where it looks like its weak so they can design their chamber right.

You should probably also let their engineers know that you've hear of something called tolerance addition and that you think it might also cause problems. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.

[Solvability]

One thought going back to the brass - if the brass had badly tarnished at one point someone may have used too much acid in a wash to clean it - that can leave the brass brittle. The likely answer is that brass had too much pressure in it for whatever reason.

[Miranda]

hi peterthefish

In the way I talk to so many.

Lets you an I come to terms.

If you want to insult me you are going to have to be more clear.

you seem to think I am some kind of authority.

I have to thank you for the credit.

You on the other hand seem to own a Glock.

So I am thinking you have a reading comprehension disorder of your own.

It never hurts to know where your equipment is weak....

If the brakes on your car are weak you should re-engineer them before you go road racing.

Knowledge is power.

There are reasons there are aftermarket Glock barrels.

You should make an attempt to look at the features listed.

miranda

[peterthefish]

hi peterthefish

In the way I talk to so many.

Lets you an I come to terms.

If you want to insult me you are going to have to be more clear.

you seem to think I am some kind of authority.

I have to thank you for the credit.

Well now isn't that folksy and cute. Let's come to terms Miranda. Let me be clear. I think you've added nothing of value to this discussion, and I think that's probably par for the course for you in just about all your endeavours. I don't think you're any type of authority on anything. I think you embody everything about idiots on the internet who read about 'out of battery firing' and 'tolerence stacking', apply a little bit of the type of 'common sense' you seem to think you have but the engineers who design these products lack, and come up with novel realizations that everyone else in the world has somehow missed.

You on the other hand seem to own a Glock.

So I am thinking you have a reading comprehension disorder of your own.

It never hurts to know where your equipment is weak....

If the brakes on your car are weak you should re-engineer them before you go road racing.

Knowledge is power.

There are reasons there are aftermarket Glock barrels.

You should make an attempt to look at the features listed.

miranda

I'm not sure how me owning a Glock (actually many Glocks) translates into a reading comprehension problem? I also own Sigs, HKs, Walthers, S&Ws, FNs, and many more that don't immediately come to mind. I guess by your criteria I'm not qualified to comment on any of them, but you are. What an interesting and non-sensical world you must live in.

It never hurts to know where your equipment is weak....

If the brakes on your car are weak you should re-engineer them before you go road racing.

Knowledge is power.

There are reasons there are aftermarket Glock barrels.

You should make an attempt to look at the features listed.

miranda

Any firearm that is not a revolver will have a partially unsupported chamber. All brass is thick at the case web and thin near the mouth. Again, your little experiment in bisecting the case adds nothing. While early Glock 40s had a chamber with less support than most, that is no longer the case with ANY factory Glock barrels. Shooting .45 loaded to safe pressures will cause no issue in ANY Glock .45.

In addition to Glocks, I own several aftermarket Glock barrels. OP isn't shooting 9 Major - in other words, he's not going road racing, he's going to the corner store, and even though he still has small discs up front and drum rears, they're fine for what he's doing. His stated load is (at first glance) a safe one. I don't need to 'look at the features listed'. I own and am familiar with the equipment, as well as reloading.

You seem to be familiar with parroting nonsense about Out of Battery firing and 'Tolerance Addition' when the limit of your expertise is what you've read online. I pointed out previously why OOB is simply a non-possibility here, and anyone familiar with the way modern firearms (in general) work would understand that.

But please, let's come to terms. You're an idiot. You have nothing to contribute here and are simply taking up space with your poorly written posts that are completely free of meaningful contribution on the topic at hand.

[Miranda]

I have to wonder why I am laughing.

miranda

[DougCarden]

Yo Pete. You do know that Glocks will fire out of battery right. I guess the ones I have witnessed and the one that did in my hand didn't really happen huh.

You may have a wealth of knowledge to share, but you have a funny way of sharing here.

DougC

[peterthefish]

Yo Pete. You do know that Glocks will fire out of battery right. I guess the ones I have witnessed and the one that did in my hand didn't really happen huh.

You may have a wealth of knowledge to share, but you have a funny way of sharing here.

DougC

How do you define OOB? Barrel and slide unlocked? Or slide slightly retracted? the former is the actual definition.

What Gen? Any mods? I don't know anything about your situation. But if the primer was struck in the center (as here) then by definition the firearm did not fire OOB. The barrel needs to have swung back into place and locked into the slide to have the primer struck as shown. By the time the slide/barrel is actually OOB (ie unlocked) or before the firearm fully returns to battery, the firing pin is too far up relative to the case head to hit the primer as shown.

While I'm a Gen 4 guy these days, none of my firearms will so much as click / no bang before the slide / barrel are well locked up.

[Miranda]

Yo Pete. You do know that Glocks will fire out of battery right. I guess the ones I have witnessed and the one that did in my hand didn't really happen huh.

You may have a wealth of knowledge to share, but you have a funny way of sharing here.

DougC

How do you define OOB? Barrel and slide unlocked? Or slide slightly retracted? the former is the actual definition.

What Gen? Any mods? I don't know anything about your situation. But if the primer was struck in the center (as here) then by definition the firearm did not fire OOB. The barrel needs to have swung back into place and locked into the slide to have the primer struck as shown. By the time the slide/barrel is actually OOB (ie unlocked) or before the firearm fully returns to battery, the firing pin is too far up relative to the case head to hit the primer as shown.

While I'm a Gen 4 guy these days, none of my firearms will so much as click / no bang before the slide / barrel are well locked up.

hi petethefish,

so when I mention that the original poster may want to check his pistol for firing out of battery,

you said it was not possible.

now you are asking what mods were made?

miranda

[peterthefish]

Yo Pete. You do know that Glocks will fire out of battery right. I guess the ones I have witnessed and the one that did in my hand didn't really happen huh.

You may have a wealth of knowledge to share, but you have a funny way of sharing here.

DougC

How do you define OOB? Barrel and slide unlocked? Or slide slightly retracted? the former is the actual definition.

What Gen? Any mods? I don't know anything about your situation. But if the primer was struck in the center (as here) then by definition the firearm did not fire OOB. The barrel needs to have swung back into place and locked into the slide to have the primer struck as shown. By the time the slide/barrel is actually OOB (ie unlocked) or before the firearm fully returns to battery, the firing pin is too far up relative to the case head to hit the primer as shown.

While I'm a Gen 4 guy these days, none of my firearms will so much as click / no bang before the slide / barrel are well locked up.

hi petethefish,

so when I mention that the original poster may want to check his pistol for firing out of battery,

you said it was not possible.

now you are asking what mods were made?

miranda

No. Again, reading comprehension. That was a response to a new poster.

[Miranda]

hi peterthefish

In the way I talk to so many.

Lets you an I come to terms.

If you want to insult me you are going to have to be more clear.

you seem to think I am some kind of authority.

I have to thank you for the credit.

Well now isn't that folksy and cute. Let's come to terms Miranda. Let me be clear. I think you've added nothing of value to this discussion, and I think that's probably par for the course for you in just about all your endeavours. I don't think you're any type of authority on anything. I think you embody everything about idiots on the internet who read about 'out of battery firing' and 'tolerence stacking', apply a little bit of the type of 'common sense' you seem to think you have but the engineers who design these products lack, and come up with novel realizations that everyone else in the world has somehow missed.

You on the other hand seem to own a Glock.

So I am thinking you have a reading comprehension disorder of your own.

It never hurts to know where your equipment is weak....

If the brakes on your car are weak you should re-engineer them before you go road racing.

Knowledge is power.

There are reasons there are aftermarket Glock barrels.

You should make an attempt to look at the features listed.

miranda

I'm not sure how me owning a Glock (actually many Glocks) translates into a reading comprehension problem? I also own Sigs, HKs, Walthers, S&Ws, FNs, and many more that don't immediately come to mind. I guess by your criteria I'm not qualified to comment on any of them, but you are. What an interesting and non-sensical world you must live in.

It never hurts to know where your equipment is weak....

If the brakes on your car are weak you should re-engineer them before you go road racing.

Knowledge is power.

There are reasons there are aftermarket Glock barrels.

You should make an attempt to look at the features listed.

miranda

Any firearm that is not a revolver will have a partially unsupported chamber. All brass is thick at the case web and thin near the mouth. Again, your little experiment in bisecting the case adds nothing. While early Glock 40s had a chamber with less support than most, that is no longer the case with ANY factory Glock barrels. Shooting .45 loaded to safe pressures will cause no issue in ANY Glock .45.

In addition to Glocks, I own several aftermarket Glock barrels. OP isn't shooting 9 Major - in other words, he's not going road racing, he's going to the corner store, and even though he still has small discs up front and drum rears, they're fine for what he's doing. His stated load is (at first glance) a safe one. I don't need to 'look at the features listed'. I own and am familiar with the equipment, as well as reloading.

You seem to be familiar with parroting nonsense about Out of Battery firing and 'Tolerance Addition' when the limit of your expertise is what you've read online. I pointed out previously why OOB is simply a non-possibility here, and anyone familiar with the way modern firearms (in general) work would understand that.

But please, let's come to terms. You're an idiot. You have nothing to contribute here and are simply taking up space with your poorly written posts that are completely free of meaningful contribution on the topic at hand.

ah what the heck I have a little free time today.

Hi peterthefish

I think I am going to do something I rarely do.

I am going to attempt to make a friend out of you.

I am going to give you a gift to show my sincerity

and then two pieces of advice

which I can only hope will help you in many facets of your life.

Lets start with me offering you a gift.

First you are not good at insulting people,

so allow me to give you a better way to insult people.

I'll re-word an essay you made at insulting me.

To make sure you don't miss it.

I believe this is the sentence you wrote in the expectation of wounding me or

besmirching my family escutcheon.

The essay: " You're an idiot. "

You did write some other things in the post but you really did not support

this assertion at all.

Oddly enough there is a better way to word it,

the rest of your post was a pretty good supporting piece to a different possible insult.

Please go back and edit it in and then I'll be truly fuming mad at you,

because the rest of your post supports it.

Here is the sentence you wanted: " You're an ignoramus. "

:-D you're welcome. please feel free to use it whenever the mood strikes.

a good gift is worth sharing.

The first bit of advice and this is intended to be friendly.

Be very careful with absolutes.

If an exception is found and proof presented,

you may hear yourself saying things like "yeah but..." and "gee, I didn't know," and " that's not what I meant."

It will also completely undermine your entire post.

To explain why I bring this up I have an example.

I found an absolute in your post.

"Any firearm that is not a revolver will have a partially unsupported chamber."

you are sure about that?

or are you going to start a discussion about what you meant by "Any"?

If you had said "it is a rare semi-auto pistol that has a fully supported chamber."

I would definitely agree.

Second bit of friendly advice.

If you want to make friends and influence the people who read in this forum,

(and you may not....) you really should take the wealth of knowledge you have

and address the original poster's problem directly.

I have little doubt the forumers will not care too much if you insult me, however,

I think most will notice that I said check for firing out of battery,

which you have said to me "it is not possible"

and then changed your mind later in this thread.

Good advice and bad advice often come with the same price tag.

Free!

good luck, sir!

miranda

[Miranda]

Hi mwf008,

have you come to any conclusions after all the knowledgeable people have weighed in?

miranda

[mwf008]

I pulled other bullets, all had the same charge weight. Also checked barrel lockup and trigger pull OOB. Even though this was pretty much ruled out, this particular gun will not fire out of battery. I've since reassembled the gun and shot it. I'm pretty impressed that the gun wasn't destroyed. Anyway, the consensus among the people that I trust locally is this was an issue of bad brass. Some friends have had similar case head separations and in all 3 other instances it was the same CBC magtech brass. These are all experienced shooters and reloaders. They've since discontinued the use of this brand of brass - I'll do the same. Thanks for all the replies and concerns, its much appreciated.

Edited July 28, 2014 by mwf008

[Miranda]

hi mwf008,

Good to know out of battery is not the problem.

It really does leave only weak brass.

I dislike arriving at answers by the subtraction method.

It takes a lot of time.

I had a car repair that was printed in the book,

if the wires have continuity and the coil is within specs...

"replace ignition module" ... it was an expensive part.

I really wanted to test the module.

The only test of brass is under fire.

miranda

[220slow]

Had a similar experience some years ago with a Glock 30. Handload with a medium load. Don't remember powder, probably Unique. Using Jacketed bullet. Blew out right side of magazine release and cracked the receiver. Fortunately I was shooting left handed. Sent the gun to Glock and they saved the slide. They put it back together for a reasonable price at the time. No accusations of "Double charge" I think a double charge would probably have done more damage. I was using brass that I had used in the past for other 45's. (1911 and 645). I don't know what age your 21 is but take a look at the feed ramp and see how much is unsupported. I don't have the 30 anymore but happily load some newer 19's. I have no interest in reloading for any factory barrel besides the 9mm in a Glock. These things happen and it isn't always operator error.

[Mayonaise]

Get a Lee factory crimp die is the first thing that I recommend if picking up random range brass. All Glock fired brass is bulged and the Dillon resizing dies do not resize the entire length of the case.

6 O'clock blowouts are user error, not the gun in my experience and I see more than most people ever will.

[Moltke]

This thread is ridiculous and I like it

OP what sport are you shooting a .45 Glock in?

[mwf008]

This thread is ridiculous and I like it

OP what sport are you shooting a .45 Glock in?

I agree! This thing turned bad quick! No sport shooting with this brick. Bought it for home defense.

[Miranda]

The thread is informative. take my word for it, I learned a lot.

You may not have known you were starting a firestorm, I sure didn't.

When one person takes a thread as a personal attack, the result is a lot like

what you have here.

The problem is that it is not completely clear one way is better than another.

if one way was 'better,' we would not have the discussion.

When I went looking for my first pistol,

a man I trust said "go get one of these pistols... la, la,and la,

when you learn more about pistols, you have my complete permission to

get a glock or a revolver or a luger."

I expect you have come to the conclusion to use nothing except new ammo

in that Glock. If it was my home defense pistol, I would use new ammo

no matter what pistol I picked.

miranda

[woodyblueballs]

Same thing happened to me in 40 cal reloads. The brass is being shoved too violently into the chamber. The transition between feed ramp and chamber bites into the brass creating a thin area.. for me I had to slow down the slide with less pressure andg or limit to use for old brass. Check your other cases to see if there is a bite mark.

[9x45]

Well I had this happen to me on a G34 about 10 years ago. Case rupture, not KaBoom, blew out the mag release. No other damage. Looked at the remaining 150 rounds and found 7 with bullet setback. More than .100" shorter than the rest. Then took and smacked them all down 5 times and about 12 more went setback. It's a seetback issue, not double charge. And by the way, Irv Stone, BarSto, loaded a test barrel to 4 times over charge in a .45acp Glock, and it did not rupture or KaBoom. I then checked the remaining bullets when seating, and found several that almost 'dropped' into the case. Stopped loading that particular brand, and have never had an issue since then.