Glock 21 brass failure

[mwf008]

Looking for opinions as to what caused this. Before you jump to conclusions, this was a very small batch of rounds that were all visually inspected for powder in the case, so please assume this is not a double charge. Based on my research I was thinking maybe weak brass that I missed, firing out of battery, or possibly bullet setback. The last scenario would have to be as the round chambered because it was the first round in the mag when it happened. There is lots of info on the internet about this but no definitive answers. Load is 4.0 gr of n310 at 1.26 with win LPP. 230 gr plated bullets with crimp at .470. Luckily the gun is repairable. It blew out the mag release along with the mag and also damaged the trigger. Thanks for the advice.

Edited July 12, 2014 by mwf008

[Hi-Power Jack]

I was thinking weak brass, firing out of battery, or possibly bullet setback.

What dies are you using for brass sizing?

[mwf008]

Dillon dies.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Are they Dillon dies in a Square Deal?

[DougCarden]

By the sheer damage to the case I would at the very least bullet set back. I load 4.3gr at 1.220-230 for JHP/FMJ of 310 with no problems at all. If you load on a 550 then I would definitely say double charge, and check pull the rest of the rounds as you have a squib in there too......

Good luck, it is not the load data.....

DougC

[chalkdust21]

I was thinking maybe weak brass, firing out of battery, or possibly bullet setback.

Combine any of those with a factory glock barrel which are not fully supported and you could have that happen.

If you reload for a glock its a good idea to switch to an aftermarket barrel like a KKM just to be on the safe side.

[polymerfeelsweirdman]

recent Glock barrels have much better support than they used to I would argue, so I am not sure if it is that

What does the barrel look like anyways?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Dillon dies.

If you're loading on a Square Deal, a set back is possible - not

getting the grip on the bullet that you might get with a tighter

sizing die.

I'd take some of your loaded rounds, and try to push them back

into the case - pushing the bullets on a bench. If they're

pushing back, that's probably the culprit.

As Doug mentioned, is you're loading on a 550, and you can't push

the bullets back into the cases, then good chance you have a double

load of powder.

[mwf008]

I don't want to come across as rude, but please re-read my original post. If I thought it was a double charge, I wouldn't be posting the question here because that is obvious. This was not a double charge. I understand peoples first reaction is to assume that it was a careless reloading accident, but that it not the case. I'm looking for other possibilities BESIDES double charge.

[DougCarden]

You asked a question, and you got answers. If it is not the one you want, I am sorry. Having reloaded ammunition for almost 25 years and having been a commercial loader I try to help people out with questions if I can help. To have that much damage it was quite a lot of pressure. Can you post pictures of the rear and primer area of the case. That will tell us quite a bit. I would imagine if it was not a double charge then the brass didnt get resized properly (ie. die not screwed all the way down to the shellplate), the case mouth was belled way too much, not enough or way too much crimp, or the bullet did get pushed in. Should be really easy to recreate. I had a pingun rebarreled and the smith forgot to ramp the barrel for the SWC bullet I loaded, and I had one KACHUNK into the chamber. I felt it hiccup as it went into the chamber. The next shot blew out the magazine. I cleaned my shorts, checked the gun, and shot more without problem but felt the chambering problem again and watched the round hang up. I had the barrel ramp adjusted and it was fine after that. I would suggest that you try an OAL of around 1.230 as that OAL will fit in about any auto and shoot just fine. The longer the OAL the more problem you will have in MIL SPEC guns.

DougC

[n0glock]

I have seen this exact case in .40, blew the mag and extractor out of the pistol, we were using commercially reloaded ammo. It was an older pistol. I believe Glock has redesigned the chamber for the newer pistols. I don't know if the issue is the same in .45. I make it a point to reload Glocked brass no more than 2 times for a factory pistol just to be safe.

[Religious Shooter]

Was the brass range pick-ups?

Is your Viht powder of recent manufacture? New jug? If it was a new jug, did you work up your load?

[mwf008]

DougC:

Here's the picture. I tried pushing on the cartridge and got zero setback from several rounds. I'm afraid I might have over belled the cases at the powder station. Can you elaborate a little more on how this could have caused the problem? Over crimping is also a concern but from what I've read 470ish is fine. Why do you think 1.26 is too long? This is what vv recommended and the rounds chamber check in the barrel just fine. Is there a possibility that it was just a weak case and that caused the failure? Some other sources seem to think this is something that can happen even with a proper inspection of the brass. What are your thoughts on that? Obviously this is what I would like to think because it takes any blame away from myself, but if this is completely unreasonable than I can take that opinion too.

Please don't take me the wrong way. I appreciate the responses, it's just that I even hesitated to post this at all for fear that people would just assume the worst. I see it all the time, people post questions like this and get accused of being careless reloaders or are offered useless suggestions like 'you shouldn't shoot reloads in glocks.' All you have is my word, but I loaded a small batch, (100 rounds) and visually inspected each case for the proper charge before seating a bullet, as I always do. All I'm saying is that I'd like to explore ANY other possibilities as I'm reasonably certain I didn't double charge a case. Thanks again for your time.

[mwf008]

Brass was range pickup, vv is from April 2013. I picked 4.0 to start as it was roughly in the middle if the spectrum and was a recipe used from other people online. From the rounds I shot, I had no reason to believe it was over pressured based on classic symptoms. The load actual shot very well before the 'incident.'

[Religious Shooter]

Yeah I'd agree with you that it is possible that it was weak brass. With range pick ups you never how many time it has been fired. "OBC" head stamp?

Vihtavuori was purchased by Nammo 12/13. Your 4/13 vintage shouldn't be affected by the changeover.

[DougCarden]

I believe the brass is CBC. If the round felt like all the others than it can definitely be bad brass. Most double charges and set backs look like the primer was welded and the rear of the case is badly distorted. No way to tell for sure, but if it didnt feel different or sound different then it is likely bad brass.

DougC

[LSnSC]

Had the exact same thing happen. Twice. I was loading on a RCBS Pro 2000 that had been upgraded to auto index and had a powder check. 4.0 grains of clays under a plated 230 gr RN. Checked crimps and OAL and they were good. Pulled bullets on each batch and powder charge was OK. All I could figure was weak brass. It was range pick up had been loaded multiple times. Threw it all out at started fresh. No problems since.

[peterthefish]

What type of plated bullets? While you are on the safe side with 4.0, plated should generally be loaded closer to lead than FMJ, and the VV recipe is for FMJs. If the bullet had a longer profile than the projectile in the recipe, you're also reducing case volume and so potentially spiking pressure.

You mention that you checked your charges, but how consistent are your throws? You may notice a double charge but I doubt you would notice an extra .4 of 310 in .45 ACP cases.

CBC is Magtech brass - no issues I've heard of there. And it's the rare piece I 45 brass that had a case head separation before a split mouth. I suppose it's possible the brass is from someone else's very hot reloads, but if it was hot enough to do this the case probably would have had some bulging apparent when you were loading you would have culled it out.

I had a similar event with a AMERC case, but that's known poor quality brass. But in that KB, the blowout followed the barrel feed ramp more closely than yours, which looks somewhat torn.

Over belling the case would be an issue that would manifest as setback. You said this was the first round? Measure a few, chamber, then measure again. Any setback?

If not Id say its a pressure spike, probably caused by a combination of your recipe and maybe heavy throws. Might be worth pulling some and seeing if they're all on the nose weight wise.

Last questions - what are you using for a scale? Can we see a loaded round?

/One more thing. I've double charged 45s before doing lots of 25 in a loading block for load development. I caught those because I was using a bulkier powder and a loading block. But with a single stage / turret / manual index it's ALWAYs a possibility. Heck I double charged a round on my LNL AP once when my wife interrupted me (thank you lockout die). It's not a character flaw. It's a possible mistake - don't take it personally that folks point it out.

Edited July 16, 2014 by peterthefish

[RJH]

I'm going with weak case. I had one blow out by the rim and crack the whole way down on stage 5 of DTC this year. I have a feeling that mine was split before I shot it and it just got missed.

[Miranda]

I love the guessing.

glock points at unsupported case leads to blowout.

weak and well used case points to setback overpressure leads to blowout

and

fire out of battery can cause blowout.

a 45 is a relatively low pressure round so I think setback is not the issue directly.

If that round was a little long it may have held the case back out of the chamber... a little.

and so the case held the breach open just a little...

that "a little" is the blowout.

I would shim the breach open a little and see how open you can get it and still have it fire.

(dry fire!!!)

that is my guess.

miranda

[Max It]

this thread and a shooter at our steel match; same prob

weak case

so I just bought a Lone Wolf barrel from Dillon

means I can use my lead and plated bullets in all range picked up brass.

good thread.

[peterthefish]

and

fire out of battery can cause blowout.

a 45 is a relatively low pressure round so I think setback is not the issue directly.

If that round was a little long it may have held the case back out of the chamber... a little.

and so the case held the breach open just a little...

that "a little" is the blowout.

I would shim the breach open a little and see how open you can get it and still have it fire.

(dry fire!!!)

that is my guess.

miranda

Easier said then done (and no doubt the reason for much of the OOB firing speculation on the internet).

Let's say you shim the breach open and push the slide far enough forward to have the trigger click. What have you actually proved? Probably nothing...

1) you don't know if the firing pin was caught by the FPB or not.

2) even if it is not, if the slide is not fully in battery the striker is not fully cocked. And you have to back the slide up a bit to get the barrel / slide to unlock. Probably enough that you wouldn't set off a primer, even if the FPB didn't catch the striker.

Try to prove OOB firing with an empty primed case and then well talk.

[Miranda]

and

fire out of battery can cause blowout.

a 45 is a relatively low pressure round so I think setback is not the issue directly.

If that round was a little long it may have held the case back out of the chamber... a little.

and so the case held the breach open just a little...

that "a little" is the blowout.

I would shim the breach open a little and see how open you can get it and still have it fire.

(dry fire!!!)

that is my guess.

miranda

Easier said then done (and no doubt the reason for much of the OOB firing speculation on the internet).

Let's say you shim the breach open and push the slide far enough forward to have the trigger click. What have you actually proved? Probably nothing...

1) you don't know if the firing pin was caught by the FPB or not.

2) even if it is not, if the slide is not fully in battery the striker is not fully cocked. And you have to back the slide up a bit to get the barrel / slide to unlock. Probably enough that you wouldn't set off a primer, even if the FPB didn't catch the striker.

Try to prove OOB firing with an empty primed case and then well talk.

quoted because I wanted you to know it is to your post I respond.

proof... ain't my gun, ain't in my hands, you are unlikely to get proof.

consider lowering your standards.

I can't imagine one can't slide a shim into the glock to hold the breach open slightly

if I was really determined I'd super glue the shim if I could not set it in place.

and pop it loose after.

if the glock barrel I met is an example of what Glock makes I'd say that

between 5 and 10 thous is all it takes to go from "life is good!" to "problem!"

if you want to state that glocks never fire out of battery, you can, I don't mind.

If you want to press the issue, We will get into a discussion about

how far back the slide can move before we get to OOB...

I was suggesting it be checked.

you seem to have a horse in this race.... :-D

[peterthefish]

and

fire out of battery can cause blowout.

a 45 is a relatively low pressure round so I think setback is not the issue directly.

If that round was a little long it may have held the case back out of the chamber... a little.

and so the case held the breach open just a little...

that "a little" is the blowout.

I would shim the breach open a little and see how open you can get it and still have it fire.

(dry fire!!!)

that is my guess.

miranda

Easier said then done (and no doubt the reason for much of the OOB firing speculation on the internet).

Let's say you shim the breach open and push the slide far enough forward to have the trigger click. What have you actually proved? Probably nothing...

1) you don't know if the firing pin was caught by the FPB or not.

2) even if it is not, if the slide is not fully in battery the striker is not fully cocked. And you have to back the slide up a bit to get the barrel / slide to unlock. Probably enough that you wouldn't set off a primer, even if the FPB didn't catch the striker.

Try to prove OOB firing with an empty primed case and then well talk.

quoted because I wanted you to know it is to your post I respond.

proof... ain't my gun, ain't in my hands, you are unlikely to get proof.

consider lowering your standards.

I can't imagine one can't slide a shim into the glock to hold the breach open slightly

if I was really determined I'd super glue the shim if I could not set it in place.

and pop it loose after.

if the glock barrel I met is an example of what Glock makes I'd say that

between 5 and 10 thous is all it takes to go from "life is good!" to "problem!"

if you want to state that glocks never fire out of battery, you can, I don't mind.

If you want to press the issue, We will get into a discussion about

how far back the slide can move before we get to OOB...

I was suggesting it be checked.

you seem to have a horse in this race.... :-D

That's what quotes are for.

I'm not asking for proof, I'm trying to help OP diagnose the problem.

Shim or not you prove nothing. And the SAAMI spec allows 22 'thous' in tolerance in 45 chamber length.

I didn't state a Glock can never fire OOB. I did point out that many people online think the fact that they can get the trigger to click with the slide slightly retracted is enough to prove OOB firing is a possible issue. Never mind that most of those 'experiments' have the slide pulled back so little that the barrel and slide are actually in battery...

I do have a horse in this though. I hate the propagation of misinformation.

[Miranda]

ah. ok propagation of misinformation.

That's me, using logic and facts to propagate misinformation...

I said it was my guess. Iffin I had the pistol in hand, I would not be guessing.

So you want me mention how to use a pencil to test if a firing pin will strike?

you seem pretty knowledgeable why don't you tell us your test?

saami specs are interesting. There is only one spec that would concern me here.

How far back can the case be in the chamber and still allow the pistol to fire.

I am a big believer in the simplest answer is usually the answer.

so real quick

what causes case failures?

unsupported cases

too much power

weak cases from corrosion

Corrosion usually produces 2 piece case failures.

that case looks pretty straight for a corrosion failure.

you can also see the stamp mark of the chamber edge.

He said he KNOWS the was no double charge.

that leaves unsupported...

This pistol should be checked.

Some one else here mentioned another type of barrel as a fix.