Why is recreating a gun on the Production Gun List against the rules?

[Vlad]

So you think its ok for a division which was designed to be "friendly" to new shooters and all manufacturers to be dominated by $2000 guns with waitinglists? You think it is ok to say "No, you SHALL wait for the hard to get gun, you can't build your own even if it is identical"

I know there still people out there telling each other how USPSA is for gamers with expensive guns and how real guns can only be used in IDPA and for the last 15 years or so the answer could be well we have production, and revolver and more recently SS. Of course now we have "factory custom" raceguns for productions, and the one true ocho gun for revolver with no other competition so .. yeah, that doesn't work anymore does it?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Vlad

[Skydiver]

... so all the mantras about it is the Indian, not the arrow has no bearing at all in Production. It's all arrow.

[Vlad]

The mantra has always been absurd because a cross bow beat long bow which beats bent piece of dry branch. If you think the mantra is true why do we not have a single devision in which revolvers shoot against open guns? Why do we have Limited being different then production?

[motosapiens]

... so all the mantras about it is the Indian, not the arrow has no bearing at all in Production. It's all arrow.

Of course it's still indian more than arrow, but the arrow mfrs would like to convince you otherwise because that's how they stay in biz.

[theblacknight]

So you think its ok for a division which was designed to be "friendly" to new shooters and all manufacturers to be dominated by $2000 guns with waitinglists? You think it is ok to say "No, you SHALL wait for the hard to get gun, you can't build your own even if it is identical"

I know there still people out there telling each other how USPSA is for gamers with expensive guns and how real guns can only be used in IDPA and for the last 15 years or so the answer could be well we have production, and revolver and more recently SS. Of course now we have "factory custom" raceguns for productions, and the one true ocho gun for revolver with no other competition so .. yeah, that doesn't work anymore does it?

The truth is, the division isnt dominated by these guns, thats why people call them unicorns. also sounds like you are bitching only because you Dont have one And cant make one. Only one 8 round revolver gun? Sounds like a free market problem to me.

also, tell me . re about how a division that needs 6 magazines is friendly to new shooters? Limited minor is friendly until they can get the extra magazines and pouches for production.

i placed higher then a shooter classed 4% above me at a sectional. He was shooting a stock 2 and I had my g17. maybe those complaining should put in more work at the range.

[Vlad]

Mr Black Knight, perhaps you wish to re-read my post. I couldn't care less what other people shoot, and frankly I can't be bothered to care about most of the USPSA rules but I do because I run match. I'm telling you exactly what the 50-100 new shooters I deal with every year are telling me. You may or may not care about unicorn guns, but there are a lot of new shooters who care because they believe it matters.

I'm not really sure what division needs 6 mags btw, SS maybe? certainly not production but I'm not even sure what that has to do with anything.

If you think you should put more work in, you go right ahead, I propose you volunteer to be the person giving the new shooter introduction and try to explain to them how our rules make sense. It is always good for a laugh.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Vlad

[sfinney]

The whole phrase is incomplete imho.

So if Indian = Shooter

And Arrow = Bullet

What about the Bow (Pistol)? No mention of the Bow! I'll take the nicer bow, if given a chance.

[kneelingatlas]

The whole phrase is incomplete imho.

So if Indian = Shooter

And Arrow = Bullet

What about the Bow (Pistol)? No mention of the Bow! I'll take the nicer bow, if given a chance.

What if some Indians have so much Wampum they don't know what to do with it so they collect dozens of high end bows just for the hell of it?!?

[theblacknight]

Mr Black Knight, perhaps you wish to re-read my post. I couldn't care less what other people shoot, and frankly I can't be bothered to care about most of the USPSA rules but I do because I run match. I'm telling you exactly what the 50-100 new shooters I deal with every year are telling me. You may or may not care about unicorn guns, but there are a lot of new shooters who care because they believe it matters.

I'm not really sure what division needs 6 mags btw, SS maybe? certainly not production but I'm not even sure what that has to do with anything.

If you think you should put more work in, you go right ahead, I propose you volunteer to be the person giving the new shooter introduction and try to explain to them how our rules make sense. It is always good for a laugh.

Ah I get it, you're not a serious shooter, you're just obligated with running matches. Production division is a division for production guns. If a brand new shooter shows up to a match with a CZ 75 SAO, he most likely won't be shooting in Production. Production isn't a division for newbies unless that new person brings a production gun and wants to shoot in production.

Look at most production shooters at a sectional and you will find 5 mags on the belt. +1 in the gun. Thats 6. Necessary for a local match? Depends on the stages. Optimal equipment for serious players? Yes.

but there are a lot of new shooters who care because they believe it matters.

There are a lot of things that new shooters think matter. I'm at a loss as to why that should have any bearing on how a division should be set up. Plenty of people think they can buy their way up the letter ladder. It takes them buying the gear and realizing they didn't amazingly become awesome over night to realize otherwise.

If you think you should put more work in, you go right ahead, I propose you volunteer to be the person giving the new shooter introduction and try to explain to them how our rules make sense. It is always good for a laugh.

I do, thats why I mentioned limited minor. Most new shooters seem to show up with a production type of gun and 3-4 mags. Shooting limited minor/major for now is how they can play right away without having to get more mags for production OR doing standing reloads.

Edited July 9, 2014 by theblacknight

[sfinney]

I agree with the above. Do you know how many times I have been at a match and have heard it explained to a brand new shooter, that because they brought a G17 (or similar) and 3 mags to the match, they should shoot Production, other wise they would be scored minor? Its their first match, let hem shoot Limited minor with full mags; who cares? They'll have fun. Probably more fun with full mags. And you don't have to explain why they can only load 10 in a 17 round mag.

Heck, let them shoot Open if their gear is wrong..... they'll still have fun. And later, after a few matches, they'll start caring about having the right gear and can fine tune things to fit a Division better.

In addition, to the Indian anology again - if some have so much money they can afford multiple high end bows, let them. You cant enforce socialism. But if its perceived to be a competitive advantage to shoot more expensive guns, then change the rules to outlaw them. Or make it like claim racing, any winning gun in the Production match can be bought for X amount by another competitor, after the match. Say $1K. That would fix it. But I don't see that happening.

[Vlad]

I thank you gentlemen for schooling me in why I usually ignore this forum. Thank you for reminding me.

I'm clearly a most unserious shooter and person, exemplified by the fact that I've been shooting production all wrong with 5 mags for the last decade. Plus, I clearly have no idea how to deal with new shooter's equipment.

I'll respectuflly bow to the higher wisdom in this thread.

[sfinney]

I usually shoot Production with 5 mags, as well, 1 in gun 4 on belt. But I usually shoot Limited with 4 on the belt too, so maybe I'm wrong in both Divisions.

I think the point was not 5 vs. 6 mags, so much as the typical new shooter bringing 3 vs. needing 5 to get through a stage. Or more, depending on how their day is going, and if there is a Texas Star involved

This used to be a forum people could discuss things on a civil basis, think out side the box, and not get so defensively entrenched in their views it comes down to a pissing match (well, most of the time). But that was many years ago.

[Sarge]

I thank you gentlemen for schooling me in why I usually ignore this forum. Thank you for reminding me.

I'm clearly a most unserious shooter and person, exemplified by the fact that I've been shooting production all wrong with 5 mags for the last decade. Plus, I clearly have no idea how to deal with new shooter's equipment.

I'll respectuflly bow to the higher wisdom in this thread.

That will teach you to have an opinion! Funny how if these conversations were happening at the local bar and grill after a match everybody would be laughing and having a good time debating things and then we would all leave to get ready to shoot together next week. Everything just seems to piss certain people off and they turn internet warrior.

You volunteer your time so others can shoot matches so in my book you are already ahead of most in the game. Thank you for stepping up and being an MD!

Don't quit visiting the forums either. What's that line from heartbreak ridge? "Don't give the prick the satisfaction".

[Skydiver]

Whoa! There's a picture of a unicorn gun on post #59.

I think the reason for the 6 mags is because most good stage designers are very good about not just setting up 8 round arrays (eg. shoot 8, run/reload, shoot 8, etc.), but instead break things up so that Production, Limited-10, and Single Stack shooters must constantly weigh risk vs. reward when deciding between reloading or keeping the partially depleted mags.

In theory, 5 mags should still be sufficient if the stage designer makes things mostly revolver friendly. I shoot L-10 and Production with 6 mags: 4 on the belt, one in the gun, and 1 in a back pocket. If all goes well, I should never have to dig into that back pocket, and not even touch mag #5. But there are a few times when the wheels come off the plan, and I've had to dump a mag to clear a jam, or there is a some far off steel activator. Then I'm glad to have that 6th mag. And then there's those multi-string classifiers where it's easier to keep focus by simply having enough loaded mags instead of having to figure out if you need to pick one up off the ground and top it off.

[theblacknight]

I thank you gentlemen for schooling me in why I usually ignore this forum. Thank you for reminding me.

I'm clearly a most unserious shooter and person, exemplified by the fact that I've been shooting production all wrong with 5 mags for the last decade. Plus, I clearly have no idea how to deal with new shooter's equipment.

I'll respectuflly bow to the higher wisdom in this thread.

That will teach you to have an opinion! Funny how if these conversations were happening at the local bar and grill after a match everybody would be laughing and having a good time debating things and then we would all leave to get ready to shoot together next week. Everything just seems to piss certain people off and they turn internet warrior.

You volunteer your time so others can shoot matches so in my book you are already ahead of most in the game. Thank you for stepping up and being an MD!

Don't quit visiting the forums either. What's that line from heartbreak ridge? "Don't give the prick the satisfaction".

It's admittedly not even his opinion, but rather that of 100 new shooters he talks to every year. If he wants to be a sore looser and take his ball with him, well there's always IDPA.

Whoa! There's a picture of a unicorn gun on post #59.

I think the reason for the 6 mags is because most good stage designers are very good about not just setting up 8 round arrays (eg. shoot 8, run/reload, shoot 8, etc.), but instead break things up so that Production, Limited-10, and Single Stack shooters must constantly weigh risk vs. reward when deciding between reloading or keeping the partially depleted mags.

In theory, 5 mags should still be sufficient if the stage designer makes things mostly revolver friendly. I shoot L-10 and Production with 6 mags: 4 on the belt, one in the gun, and 1 in a back pocket. If all goes well, I should never have to dig into that back pocket, and not even touch mag #5. But there are a few times when the wheels come off the plan, and I've had to dump a mag to clear a jam, or there is a some far off steel activator. Then I'm glad to have that 6th mag. And then there's those multi-string classifiers where it's easier to keep focus by simply having enough loaded mags instead of having to figure out if you need to pick one up off the ground and top it off.

Spot on dude.

[56hawk]

I'm not really sure what division needs 6 mags btw, SS maybe? certainly not production but I'm not even sure what that has to do with anything.

Sorry to continue this thread drift, but how do you think the average production shooter would shoot this stage?

[alma]

That stage in like any perfect worst case scenario. You might try one or two positions without a reload but the disaster factor is too high with all of the smaller steel targets.

I shot Production for 3 years and won Area 1 with only 4 mag pouches. There was rarely a scenario that made me wish I had another pouch. That being said I have 5 on my new rig just in case...

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not really sure what division needs 6 mags btw, SS maybe? certainly not production but I'm not even sure what that has to do with anything.

Sorry to continue this thread drift, but how do you think the average production shooter would shoot this stage?

In a bored coma? That's some of the laziest design I've ever seen -- along with a lot of walls for not a lot of freestyle.....

[56hawk]

In a bored coma? That's some of the laziest design I've ever seen -- along with a lot of walls for not a lot of freestyle.....

Pretty much. I just drew it up to make a point.

[Nik Habicht]

In a bored coma? That's some of the laziest design I've ever seen -- along with a lot of walls for not a lot of freestyle.....

Pretty much. I just drew it up to make a point.

Whew -- now I'm relieved.......

I rarely need more than 4 mags to shoot a stage in production -- and no, it's not that we're faced with a plethora of 8-8-8-8; rather we get a lot of weird number combinations where it's possible, and often smart to shoot 9-11 rounds between reloads -- but I run six pouches with mags on my belt. Once upon a time at Nats a doorway snagged two mags out of my pouches.....

I was happy to have extras.....

[kneelingatlas]

My friend was shooting Production early on and only had three pouches so I picked up the first one he dropped, pumped it full of rounds and handed it off to the RO who handed it to him at the last array.

It was surprising stressful to load ten rounds of .45 on the clock!

[mjohn]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Aglifter]

IMO, production should be our "NASCAR ." Make it more about the factory models, and less about individual shooters preferences - but I think there should be a healthy minimum of a qualifying model available for sale.

And, if not already, perhaps a weight cap to keep them into more along the weight of duty/carry guns.

[kneelingatlas]

Have you ever seen a NASCAR "stock car"?!?

Ford Taurus - 288 horsepower:

Ford Taurus - 900 horsepower:

Edited July 13, 2014 by kneelingatlas

[Skydiver]

And to bring the thread back full circle, a NASCAR "stock car" is built up from scratch from custom parts to more or less conform to the general profile of the production car.

http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/how-its-made/videos/how-its-made-nascar-stock-cars.htm

http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/how-its-made/videos/how-its-made-nascar-stock-cars.htm