Reload during movement

[motosapiens]

ok, I have to ask ....

what is "a high C shooter who is known to be really lucky to make A ..." ......?

I think what he said was "i'm a high C shooter now, I'll be lucky to make A (someday)"

I don't think it will be luck tho. It's just plain work. See the sights, pull the trigger smoothly, repeat until you get faster at it.

[greyhounder]

ok, I have to ask ....

what is "a high C shooter who is known to be really lucky to make A ..." ......?

I think what he said was "i'm a high C shooter now, I'll be lucky to make A (someday)"

I don't think it will be luck tho. It's just plain work. See the sights, pull the trigger smoothly, repeat until you get faster at it.

Thanks Moto, really hate auto correct. Yes that is what I meant.

At the same time,I'm 61 and being realistic,but always striving to improve.

[motosapiens]

ok, I have to ask ....

what is "a high C shooter who is known to be really lucky to make A ..." ......?

I think what he said was "i'm a high C shooter now, I'll be lucky to make A (someday)"

I don't think it will be luck tho. It's just plain work. See the sights, pull the trigger smoothly, repeat until you get faster at it.

Thanks Moto, really hate auto correct. Yes that is what I meant.

At the same time,I'm 61 and being realistic,but always striving to improve.

The classifications can be a good motivational tool (I know they are for me), but the whole point is just to improve. Good luck and keep up the hard work.

[Nimitz]

yep, I see that now .... and don't worry, at least one of the candidates for USPSA president is advocating changing the classification system so I'm sure its about to get a lot easier to move up ....

[greyhounder]

yep, I see that now .... and don't worry, at least one of the candidates for USPSA president is advocating changing the classification system so I'm sure its about to get a lot easier to move up ....

Kind of changes the topic,but making it easier to make higher classes without the same skill level as previous shooters sounds utterly ridiculous I said I don't expect to make a GM that doesn't mean I am not striving to. Then again maybe still in the topic area.

[waktasz]

yep, I see that now .... and don't worry, at least one of the candidates for USPSA president is advocating changing the classification system so I'm sure its about to get a lot easier to move up ....

Which one?

[Nimitz]

unfortunately I don't recall but Ben Stoeger mentioned it during his latest Podcast when he was discussing what 2 of the candidates who came on his podcast had said during their interviews ... I don't thik it was either of them though ...

[seadog_99]

Start the reload as soon as you start to move (which should be immediately after you fire your last shot at a location). Don't do things faster, do them sooner.

[QuickMick]

And that's my exact point. Practicing standing reloads is nice but the real skill to learn is to be able to reload after firing a shot within one or two steps max ... And that is a different skill ....

Seeklander has drills he calls 'stepping reloads' to learn this exact skill ....

Totally agree. I trained a guy starting dynamic shooting, and all he was talking about was "shooting faster". I took a tape of him while running a training stage, and measured the time he needed to reload on the move (ok, that was mean). So we worked on the "last shot fired get out positon and reload" - stuff, what was a real progress for him following the approach that shots take the time they need but everything else is suboptimal for the hit facor.

[Less]

Hi,

I need to speed up my movement between shooting positions. Discussed reloads during movement on the last match and would like to have some more opinions. Lets assume shooting position one and two with a 10meter/yard distance. The comment I got was that you run faster if you reload either when leaving p1 or entering p2 compared to reloading when running in between.

In general, would you prefer to reload when exiting or entering a position?

Then we have the more complicated cases with movement away from the berm.

stg2.JPG

Safety angles 90 degrees on right side, less on the left side.

Start at the x, reload before the second group of four targets (start with 16 rounds).

At P1 (x) i shot the lower two, started backing up and shot the upper two targets, dropped mag, and reloaded as I entered P2. Would it be better to reload before turning and running to P2?

I think it depends if you're a righty or a lefty.

If you're a righty, you can reload right away. If you're a lefty, you'll need to break up the reload into two sections: move-eject-grab, then once you clean the wall, pivot-seat-grip...

Breaking up the reload on goofy oblique movement doesn't add more than .1-.2 s since you're eating the time pivoting on some goofy angles anyway...

Here's a boring video of me trying to sort this out... I start movement a bit late.

[Jake Di Vita]

One old school IPSC shooter that I competed with a lot my first couple years of USPSA always pushed me to have the reload done in this first step of movement regardless of the direction of that movement. I've put it on the timer many times and I always scored better if I smashed the load in that deadtime when I shift my momentum at the start of moving rather than trying to move and reload on the way. The goal I work towards is to be done with my reload before my second foot hits the ground on the way to the next shooting position. I can then move at a higher rate of speed than I could if I had to get a reload done mid stride. On the timer it manifested consistently between .2 and .5 faster depending on the situation.

For me to be consistent reloading on the move I find I like the same level of body stability as if I were shooting on the move.

[Less]

One old school IPSC shooter that I competed with a lot my first couple years of USPSA always pushed me to have the reload done in this first step of movement regardless of the direction of that movement. I've put it on the timer many times and I always scored better if I smashed the load in that deadtime when I shift my momentum at the start of moving rather than trying to move and reload on the way. The goal I work towards is to be done with my reload before my second foot hits the ground on the way to the next shooting position. I can then move at a higher rate of speed than I could if I had to get a reload done mid stride. On the timer it manifested consistently between .2 and .5 faster depending on the situation.

For me to be consistent reloading on the move I find I like the same level of body stability as if I were shooting on the move.

What is your take on moving at goofy angle, not conducive to the reload? E.g. righty moving uprange and to the back left?

[Jake Di Vita]

Goofy angles of movement make it more important to get the load done as early as possible.

To add on that a bit, if I'm doing my job right the reload is completed pretty much before my shoulders even turn. So moving left as a righty or needing to turn to run uprange has almost no impact on how I need to execute the reload.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Less]

Goofy angles of movement make it more important to get the load done as early as possible.

To add on that a bit, if I'm doing my job right the reload is completed pretty much before my shoulders even turn. So moving left as a righty or needing to turn to run uprange has almost no impact on how I need to execute the reload.

I dunno... Imagine the scenario of moving from front to back, for a right handed shooter, turning away from the gun. That means, the shooter would have to standing reload before really getting outta there...

I think there is value, in that specific case, to eject the mag, grab the fresh magazine and begin the movement - all at the same time.

The shooter needs to pivot to face downrange when they get to where they're going. It is at that point that the shooter can finish the seating, etc.

[CHA-LEE]

I am with Jake on this as I have proven on the clock that getting the load done immediately (within the first step) then hauling ass results in a slightly faster time but more importantly produces a more consistent result as well. For me it became very important to keep my shoulders in line with my hips until I got the magazine off the belt to enable a consistent "Slapping" motion to grab the next mag off the belt. So basically, I delay any waist twisting motion during the position exit movement until the mag is off my belt, but that delay is very minimal if I am slapping down to the next mag aggressively.

[CHA-LEE]

As for the reteating to the left (for right handed shooters) while reloading it saves zero time to delay the reload until you reach the rearward destination. It takes a little extra time to do a load in this scenario regardless of doing it at the front or the rear due to the retreating movement. This is where consistency comes into play. Sticking a reload at the front then hauling ass to the back is a lot less complex than trying to drop the mag as you retreat, grab a mag then delay the load until you get the rear position and start turning around again. There is enough to focus on already during a stage run without making it way more complex than it has to be, especially when its not an advantage to making it more complex.

[d_striker]

One old school IPSC shooter that I competed with a lot my first couple years of USPSA always pushed me to have the reload done in this first step of movement regardless of the direction of that movement. I've put it on the timer many times and I always scored better if I smashed the load in that deadtime when I shift my momentum at the start of moving rather than trying to move and reload on the way. The goal I work towards is to be done with my reload before my second foot hits the ground on the way to the next shooting position. I can then move at a higher rate of speed than I could if I had to get a reload done mid stride. On the timer it manifested consistently between .2 and .5 faster depending on the situation.

For me to be consistent reloading on the move I find I like the same level of body stability as if I were shooting on the move.

I'm starting to come to the same conclusion.

[Jake Di Vita]

Goofy angles of movement make it more important to get the load done as early as possible.

To add on that a bit, if I'm doing my job right the reload is completed pretty much before my shoulders even turn. So moving left as a righty or needing to turn to run uprange has almost no impact on how I need to execute the reload.

I dunno... Imagine the scenario of moving from front to back, for a right handed shooter, turning away from the gun. That means, the shooter would have to standing reload before really getting outta there...

I think there is value, in that specific case, to eject the mag, grab the fresh magazine and begin the movement - all at the same time.

The shooter needs to pivot to face downrange when they get to where they're going. It is at that point that the shooter can finish the seating, etc.

It all depends on how quickly you can get that load done. Someone who is slightly slower on the reload could be better served by your suggestion. For me I see the most benefit from my method when moving uprange because if I execute properly, my reload is done right about the same instant I drop step (hard exit) so I'm not really losing any time just standing there and I can run as hard as possible right from the beginning. I want to start the movement to the next position at the same time as I would if I weren't reloading, it's just on me to get the load done in that deadtime before my body has had a chance to move much.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Less]

As for the reteating to the left (for right handed shooters) while reloading it saves zero time to delay the reload until you reach the rearward destination. It takes a little extra time to do a load in this scenario regardless of doing it at the front or the rear due to the retreating movement. This is where consistency comes into play. Sticking a reload at the front then hauling ass to the back is a lot less complex than trying to drop the mag as you retreat, grab a mag then delay the load until you get the rear position and start turning around again. There is enough to focus on already during a stage run without making it way more complex than it has to be, especially when its not an advantage to making it more complex.

I think that when movement is long enough, being able to split the load can help. I think it can save easily .5-1 second over reload-then-move scenario in this particular case.

I think you're correct that it is tougher to do, but I'm just focusing on the time aspect here...

It all depends on how quickly you can get that load done. Someone who is slightly slower on the reload could be better served by your suggestion. For me I see the most benefit from my method when moving uprange because if I execute properly, my reload is done right about the same instant I drop step (hard exit) so I'm not really losing any time just standing there and I can run as hard as possible right from the beginning. I want to start the movement to the next position at the same time as I would if I weren't reloading, it's just on me to get the load done in that deadtime before my body has had a chance to move much.

I dunno ... this guy seems to be pretty sorted out - he's got his momentum going and it seems the split load worked well for him.

Check 20 seconds in...

https://www.facebook.com/148282375201268/videos/1081787421850754/

Funny thing is he seems to do this regularly when the occasion presents...

https://www.facebook.com/148282375201268/videos/622380041124830/

Edited April 13, 2016 by Less

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm not saying the split load isn't perfectly acceptable for some people or certain situations, I'm saying I am consistently faster if I get the load done first. Eric has more than likely put enough work in to be consistent reloading at a gallop, he's obviously better than I am. I'm not convinced however that he can reload and run to a position faster than I can. I've only met him once or twice so I don't know him well enough to send him a drill we could run to see. I think it'd be interesting though.

[motosapiens]

I think the smart thing is to like jake and cha-lee have done, and time it both ways. For me, the longer the movement, the more I benefit by leaving immediately and worrying about the reload on the way. If it's only a few steps, it works a little better to get the mag out and up first, and seat the mag as I'm stepping off, mostly just because I have the gun up earlier coming into position. It doesn't seem to make any difference to my movement speed to be reloading while moving.

Working at nationals, I've seen supersquad guys do it both ways.

[Less]

...time it both ways.

Have you timed it both ways? Just curious what difference you found...

[motosapiens]

...time it both ways.

Have you timed it both ways? Just curious what difference you found...

I thought that's what I was expressing in my post. Sorry if that was unclear. I found that it doesn't make much difference for me, but for a few steps (5-10') it is *slightly* better to get the reload done as early as possible, just because it allows me to have the gun up earlier coming into a position, even if it slightly slows my exit. Might be a .1sec difference, if that, which also may vary based on target difficulty.

for longer movements (20-30' or more), it helps more to just get moving immediately and worry about the reload on the way.

I also have found that it seems to make a difference how fast you can reload. Back when I was a middle C shooter with 2 second reloads (on a good day), Stoeger advised me to move first, then reload because my reload was essentially keeping me in position forever. Now that I'm an improving A and my live fire reloads are more like 1.3 seconds, I can almost get it done in the process of turning and stepping off, like Jake suggests.

I expect that my way may not work for shooters much better or much worse or much faster physically or much slower physically. That's why I like the empirical approach. Time it in various ways, see what works, see what other problems crop up.

[motosapiens]

As for the reteating to the left (for right handed shooters) while reloading it saves zero time to delay the reload until you reach the rearward destination. It takes a little extra time to do a load in this scenario regardless of doing it at the front or the rear due to the retreating movement. This is where consistency comes into play. Sticking a reload at the front then hauling ass to the back is a lot less complex than trying to drop the mag as you retreat, grab a mag then delay the load until you get the rear position and start turning around again. There is enough to focus on already during a stage run without making it way more complex than it has to be, especially when its not an advantage to making it more complex.

If I have to retreat, and then do something else (like move sideways or around something and then forward again), I found a noticeable reduction in time by delaying the insertion of the mag until the rearward movement was completed. If you have to shoot immediately upon finishing the rearward movement, then it seemed like a wash.

[CHA-LEE]

The way I see it, if I have extra time during movement to do any gun handling, I am not moving aggressively enough (Breaking grip and pumping arms to really get after it). The sooner I get the reload done the sooner I can give it all I got to haul ass. If you are not moving aggressively then you can do the reload whenever you want, but you are donating time because you are really not hauling ass in the first place.