Reload during movement

[motosapiens]

The way I see it, if I have extra time during movement to do any gun handling, I am not moving aggressively enough (Breaking grip and pumping arms to really get after it). The sooner I get the reload done the sooner I can give it all I got to haul ass. If you are not moving aggressively then you can do the reload whenever you want, but you are donating time because you are really not hauling ass in the first place.

I presume you have tested it, so I'm sure you are doing it right, but it seems likely to me that the answer will be different for different people. I've been unable to ascertain any difference in movement speed (6' or further) with vs without a reload. As a lifelong athlete tho, I'm used to running full speed while doing other stuff. It turns out that my subconscious is entirely capable of handling movement as fast as I can move. It doesn't actually get any faster if I stop paying attention to other stuff and pay more attention to trying to move faster.

[CHA-LEE]

Everyone is different and thus needs to test it out for themselves. I have tested this stuff and sticking the reload as soon as possible then hauling ass always resulted in a more consistent result.

[wtturn]

Re: a retreat movement w/ reload

In a class with Ben he taught us it was situational depending on the distance and direction.

If you're rotating your body clockwise then it probably makes sense to load immediately and get the gun up near your left shoulder.

If you're rotating your body counter-clockwise with the gun pointed downrange behind your body, it makes sense to hold the mag and wait to load until you're rotating your body back downrange.

[motosapiens]

more consistent result.

I think consistency is another key component. I'm simple sometimes, so if two techniques are pretty close in time, but one is more consistent and more natural (i.e. easier to execute correctly without thinking), then I lean towards that technique.

Lots of good points being brought up here. Might be time for some more testing and experimentation.

[tha1000]

Re: a retreat movement w/ reload

In a class with Ben he taught us it was situational depending on the distance and direction.

If you're rotating your body clockwise then it probably makes sense to load immediately and get the gun up near your left shoulder.

If you're rotating your body counter-clockwise with the gun pointed downrange behind your body, it makes sense to hold the mag and wait to load until you're rotating your body back downrange.

He didn't give my class any directional stipulations, but basically said if it was more than a couple of steps, haul ass and then worry about the reload, and then had us run drills that way.

[motosapiens]

He didn't give my class any directional stipulations, but basically said if it was more than a couple of steps, haul ass and then worry about the reload, and then had us run drills that way.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Ben's advice may not be oriented towards the best possible competitive strategy, but perhaps also as a way to get less experienced shooters to start moving instead of standing there for a second or so completing the reload before even starting to move.

[Less]

As for the reteating to the left (for right handed shooters) while reloading it saves zero time to delay the reload until you reach the rearward destination. It takes a little extra time to do a load in this scenario regardless of doing it at the front or the rear due to the retreating movement. This is where consistency comes into play. Sticking a reload at the front then hauling ass to the back is a lot less complex than trying to drop the mag as you retreat, grab a mag then delay the load until you get the rear position and start turning around again. There is enough to focus on already during a stage run without making it way more complex than it has to be, especially when its not an advantage to making it more complex.

If I have to retreat, and then do something else (like move sideways or around something and then forward again), I found a noticeable reduction in time by delaying the insertion of the mag until the rearward movement was completed. If you have to shoot immediately upon finishing the rearward movement, then it seemed like a wash.

Specifically talking about moving away from the dominant shooting hand (righty moving "left" or "back left").

Let's assume movement is ~10' away, so nothing that is just essentially a standing reload.

In our case, the options are binary:

1.) Reload then move.

2.) Split the load.

Option 1 serializes the time.

Option 2 is more complex. Allows you to keep moving.

When beginning the rotation to face back towards the targets, that moment where you pivot becomes the moment where you can seat the magazine. It is dead time. Performing the seating there is smart - there is not a lot of motion of the gun, etc.

[wtturn]

He didn't give my class any directional stipulations, but basically said if it was more than a couple of steps, haul ass and then worry about the reload, and then had us run drills that way.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Ben's advice may not be oriented towards the best possible competitive strategy, but perhaps also as a way to get less experienced shooters to start moving instead of standing there for a second or so completing the reload before even starting to move.

This was in skills and drills with all master class shooters, so I can safely debunk this assertion.

[Jake Di Vita]

As for the reteating to the left (for right handed shooters) while reloading it saves zero time to delay the reload until you reach the rearward destination. It takes a little extra time to do a load in this scenario regardless of doing it at the front or the rear due to the retreating movement. This is where consistency comes into play. Sticking a reload at the front then hauling ass to the back is a lot less complex than trying to drop the mag as you retreat, grab a mag then delay the load until you get the rear position and start turning around again. There is enough to focus on already during a stage run without making it way more complex than it has to be, especially when its not an advantage to making it more complex.

If I have to retreat, and then do something else (like move sideways or around something and then forward again), I found a noticeable reduction in time by delaying the insertion of the mag until the rearward movement was completed. If you have to shoot immediately upon finishing the rearward movement, then it seemed like a wash.

Specifically talking about moving away from the dominant shooting hand (righty moving "left" or "back left").

Let's assume movement is ~10' away, so nothing that is just essentially a standing reload.

In our case, the options are binary:

1.) Reload then move.

2.) Split the load.

Option 1 serializes the time.

Option 2 is more complex. Allows you to keep moving.

When beginning the rotation to face back towards the targets, that moment where you pivot becomes the moment where you can seat the magazine. It is dead time. Performing the seating there is smart - there is not a lot of motion of the gun, etc.

Part of the confusion I think is I don't consider my method to be "Reload then move". I don't delay leaving a position to get a reload done, I reload as I accelerate out of position.

Regardless of how you move or if you are reloading, it will take a certain small amount of time to go from stationary to moving. My goal is to get the reload done in that time.

I agree that the split load is more complex (and for me, less consistent). I don't agree that seating the magazine as you face back towards the targets is smart though. This is the time I want to be extending the gun to the target and getting on the sights, not seating a mag. The method you suggest is also more costly if it doesn't go just right...in the case of a less than perfect load you are fumbling when you could be shooting whereas if I screw up my method, I still have the distance I need to move to get it completed.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Gooldylocks]

Conversations like this are interesting to me, because we have 3 GMs all with different takes on the best way to do this, and the opinion of a 4th (stoeger). I think that shows that something like this is so personal that the only way to know is to do it for yourself a bunch of times.

[Less]

I agree that the split load is more complex (and for me, less consistent). I don't agree that seating the magazine as you face back towards the targets is smart though. This is the time I want to be extending the gun to the target and getting on the sights, not seating a mag. The method you suggest is also more costly if it doesn't go just right...in the case of a less than perfect load you are fumbling when you could be shooting whereas if I screw up my method, I still have the distance I need to move to get it completed.

But I guess that is the crux of the issue - how do you move hard and reload the gun when coming backwards? The act of initiating the movement necessitates moving away from the gun...

Anyway, I think Goldilocks is right: 3 GM's with different takes - I think we're just going to be different in our approach here.

Interesting dicussion - I hope folks reading try out a variety of things.

[motosapiens]

He didn't give my class any directional stipulations, but basically said if it was more than a couple of steps, haul ass and then worry about the reload, and then had us run drills that way.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Ben's advice may not be oriented towards the best possible competitive strategy, but perhaps also as a way to get less experienced shooters to start moving instead of standing there for a second or so completing the reload before even starting to move.

This was in skills and drills with all master class shooters, so I can safely debunk this assertion.

thank you for debunking my speculation (definitely not an assertion).

How does ben do it? I mean actually in matches, not what he tells students...

Edited April 14, 2016 by motosapiens

[Jake Di Vita]

But I guess that is the crux of the issue - how do you move hard and reload the gun when coming backwards? The act of initiating the movement necessitates moving away from the gun...

Anyway, I think Goldilocks is right: 3 GM's with different takes - I think we're just going to be different in our approach here.

Interesting dicussion - I hope folks reading try out a variety of things.

My reload ends up pretty much the same regardless of which direction I'm moving.

Agreed that everyone needs to try it all out for themselves on the timer.

[wtturn]

He didn't give my class any directional stipulations, but basically said if it was more than a couple of steps, haul ass and then worry about the reload, and then had us run drills that way.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Ben's advice may not be oriented towards the best possible competitive strategy, but perhaps also as a way to get less experienced shooters to start moving instead of standing there for a second or so completing the reload before even starting to move.

This was in skills and drills with all master class shooters, so I can safely debunk this assertion.

thank you for debunking my speculation (definitely not an assertion).

How does ben do it? I mean actually in matches, not what he tells students...

Watch the stage at 3:30 in the video.

[motosapiens]

Watch the stage at 3:30 in the video.

That's good stuff. thanks for posting that. they sure do like props in canada. I guess they have alot of time to think up stuff like that after the nhl regular season ends and all the canadian teams are idle.

Edited April 14, 2016 by motosapiens

[Nimitz]

He didn't give my class any directional stipulations, but basically said if it was more than a couple of steps, haul ass and then worry about the reload, and then had us run drills that way.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that Ben's advice may not be oriented towards the best possible competitive strategy, but perhaps also as a way to get less experienced shooters to start moving instead of standing there for a second or so completing the reload before even starting to move.

This was in skills and drills with all master class shooters, so I can safely debunk this assertion.

thank you for debunking my speculation (definitely not an assertion).

How does ben do it? I mean actually in matches, not what he tells students...

i've taken several classes from Ben and he is definitely NOT a 'do as i say, not as I do" instructor. The things he teaches his students are the same things he uses at matches ....

Edited April 14, 2016 by Nimitz

[motosapiens]

i've taken several classes from Ben and he is definitely NOT a 'do as i say, not as I do" instructor. The things he teaches his students are the same things he uses at matches ....

Some of the drills he uses at classes are NOT things to use at matches, but rather steps to learning, or to help push you past some kind of mental block. For example, the 'cadence' shooting to force you to drive transitions harder.

He'll also encourage 'turtle' shooters to just bust loose, shoot faster, don't worry about not getting alphas. I'm pretty sure that's not what he does at matches.....

I don't recall the specific context of the reloading bit, so I don't know if he was saying 'always worry about moving first and do the reload on the way' or if he was saying 'try this and see how it feels'. I do know he is big on empirical testing, and trying different things to see what works the best, which is right in line with what the better shooters that are posting here are saying.

Edited April 14, 2016 by motosapiens

[Less]

Just thought it be interesting to pop this up here... Got some footage of retreating reload/movement and put it on Coachseye software..

.16s difference to a tough ~15 yard mini...

[CHA-LEE]

Nice video. The time difference between remounting the gun and breaking the shot is only 0.03 sec which I would consider identical given the frame rate of the video. The time difference of .15 - .20 during the reload is expected because you built it into the second position.

The thing to look at here is the total time the reload takes vs the complexity of it. When I tally the total time it takes for you to reload it comes to about 1.50 seconds. At your skill level a 1.50 second reload is pretty generous and I would venture to say that you could do a standing reload in 1 second or less. If you can stick the reload immediately after breaking the shot and while leaving the first box at the same aggressive foot speed then you are gaining back the lost time are you not? Not to mention dramatically increasing the consistency of the reload. Lastly you also need to factor in the value of being 100% focused on entering the next shooting position properly with the gun up and ready to shoot as soon as you get there. To me I would rather be focused on blasting the next targets as I enter the next position verses completing a reload.

The reload is going to cost you some time verses not loading in that rearward movement scenario so even if its not any "Faster" to reload in the front verses the back the deciding factor comes down to overall consistency in doing the reload and movement. Which one could you do 10 times and produce the same result 95% of the time?

[CHA-LEE]

Measuring the value of these two scenarios may also help you understand the overall impact. We can break down this section of the stage in to a mini stage to see what the Hit Factor difference is. If we use the two shots as our point (10 Points total) then divide the time difference, the non-Reload run is a 3.37 HF and the Reload run is 3.19 HF. To make the math easy we can safely say that the reload costs you 0.20 HF which does not sound like a lot but ends up being about 5% from percentage perspective. 5% is a lot in the big picture. Even if you have to eat the extra stage time to do the reload and donate that 5% in performance lost the ultimate answer comes down to consistency. Do you want to consistently donate 5% 10 times out of 10? Or risk donating a higher percentage due to the additional complexity of the process used?

[Jake Di Vita]

I tend to agree with what Cha_Lee is saying. One thing I think we should also consider in that video is the amount of time it takes after getting into position before you fire. On the bottom video, assuming you had the gun mounted when you came into position, the earliest point that you can fire (when your trailing foot leaves the ground) is about 2.03. On the top video you are just extending the gun from the reload at 2.50. So you see a .16 difference from reloading to not reloading, but I see a lot of time that can be saved on the non-reload (or reload early) when you come into position by getting on the sights earlier. Granted that this is on a reasonably challenging 15 yard partial, so even with how I try to get on the sights entering a position I probably wouldn't fire on this particular target the instant my trailing foot left the ground but that would still be the goal. I think you'd also see a wider time gap if the target was less challenging.

[Less]

Nice video.

...

The reload is going to cost you some time verses not loading in that rearward movement scenario so even if its not any "Faster" to reload in the front verses the back the deciding factor comes down to overall consistency in doing the reload and movement. Which one could you do 10 times and produce the same result 95% of the time?

That's the nice thing about this split-load: The body is pivoting, so it is actually pretty easy to seat the magazine... It reduces risk with a production gun (no magwell )

Measuring the value of these two scenarios may also help you understand the overall impact. We can break down this section of the stage in to a mini stage to see what the Hit Factor difference is. If we use the two shots as our point (10 Points total) then divide the time difference, the non-Reload run is a 3.37 HF and the Reload run is 3.19 HF. To make the math easy we can safely say that the reload costs you 0.20 HF which does not sound like a lot but ends up being about 5% from percentage perspective. 5% is a lot in the big picture. Even if you have to eat the extra stage time to do the reload and donate that 5% in performance lost the ultimate answer comes down to consistency. Do you want to consistently donate 5% 10 times out of 10? Or risk donating a higher percentage due to the additional complexity of the process used?

Good analysis, but I wonder if this is really a valid comparison: What we should really be comparing is the time of split-reload to a reload-then-move scenario.

I suspect in that case, assuming that I serialize .4 seconds for the reload/rolling out of the movement and gain .2 from speeding up the entry, I'd still be .2 behind the time of the current reload: 3.43s. That's an additional 5%...

I'll put that on the timer and see how that pans out. (I should disclose that my reloads are not all that great... I have great trouble with a standing sub-second reload.)

I tend to agree with what Cha_Lee is saying. One thing I think we should also consider in that video is the amount of time it takes after getting into position before you fire. On the bottom video, assuming you had the gun mounted when you came into position, the earliest point that you can fire (when your trailing foot leaves the ground) is about 2.03. On the top video you are just extending the gun from the reload at 2.50. So you see a .16 difference from reloading to not reloading, but I see a lot of time that can be saved on the non-reload (or reload early) when you come into position by getting on the sights earlier. Granted that this is on a reasonably challenging 15 yard partial, so even with how I try to get on the sights entering a position I probably wouldn't fire on this particular target the instant my trailing foot left the ground but that would still be the goal. I think you'd also see a wider time gap if the target was less challenging.

I get what you're saying - It seems like forever to aim and launch that shot, especially in slow motion - but I'm trying to work on ensuring the hit. I def. need to work on speeding up that process, but the focus has been on good movement out of position lately. I'll swing back towards getting more cavalier on the sights come May/June.

Regardless, good discussions - I think we'll continue to disagree, but hopefully other people reading are getting informed.

[Gooldylocks]

Nice video.

...

The reload is going to cost you some time verses not loading in that rearward movement scenario so even if its not any "Faster" to reload in the front verses the back the deciding factor comes down to overall consistency in doing the reload and movement. Which one could you do 10 times and produce the same result 95% of the time?

That's the nice thing about this split-load: The body is pivoting, so it is actually pretty easy to seat the magazine... It reduces risk with a production gun (no magwell )

Measuring the value of these two scenarios may also help you understand the overall impact. We can break down this section of the stage in to a mini stage to see what the Hit Factor difference is. If we use the two shots as our point (10 Points total) then divide the time difference, the non-Reload run is a 3.37 HF and the Reload run is 3.19 HF. To make the math easy we can safely say that the reload costs you 0.20 HF which does not sound like a lot but ends up being about 5% from percentage perspective. 5% is a lot in the big picture. Even if you have to eat the extra stage time to do the reload and donate that 5% in performance lost the ultimate answer comes down to consistency. Do you want to consistently donate 5% 10 times out of 10? Or risk donating a higher percentage due to the additional complexity of the process used?

Good analysis, but I wonder if this is really a valid comparison: What we should really be comparing is the time of split-reload to a reload-then-move scenario.

I suspect in that case, assuming that I serialize .4 seconds for the reload/rolling out of the movement and gain .2 from speeding up the entry, I'd still be .2 behind the time of the current reload: 3.43s. That's an additional 5%...

I'll put that on the timer and see how that pans out. (I should disclose that my reloads are not all that great... I have great trouble with a standing sub-second reload.)

I tend to agree with what Cha_Lee is saying. One thing I think we should also consider in that video is the amount of time it takes after getting into position before you fire. On the bottom video, assuming you had the gun mounted when you came into position, the earliest point that you can fire (when your trailing foot leaves the ground) is about 2.03. On the top video you are just extending the gun from the reload at 2.50. So you see a .16 difference from reloading to not reloading, but I see a lot of time that can be saved on the non-reload (or reload early) when you come into position by getting on the sights earlier. Granted that this is on a reasonably challenging 15 yard partial, so even with how I try to get on the sights entering a position I probably wouldn't fire on this particular target the instant my trailing foot left the ground but that would still be the goal. I think you'd also see a wider time gap if the target was less challenging.

I get what you're saying - It seems like forever to aim and launch that shot, especially in slow motion - but I'm trying to work on ensuring the hit. I def. need to work on speeding up that process, but the focus has been on good movement out of position lately. I'll swing back towards getting more cavalier on the sights come May/June.

Regardless, good discussions - I think we'll continue to disagree, but hopefully other people reading are getting informed.

The bolded part is what started all of this, so I am really interested to see what it looks like on slow mo. If you have time I would love to see a video Les.

I think all 3 of you guys should do that same drill all 3 ways, and then we can break it down, and average it across all 3 of you to see what is the fastest, on average.

::ETA:: though it might be skewed since 2 of you do it reload then move and only one does the split load (regularly, of course). But maybe that is a good thing?

Edited April 20, 2016 by Gooldylocks

[CHA-LEE]

I am not thinking of this discussion as agreeing or disagreeing with any particular approach being the "only" way in doing something. There are many different ways to do the same thing effectively. Its up to each of us to leverage the most effective way for our current skill level.

For example, if you can't stick a sub 1 second load standing then there is no way that you are going to be able to do it while existing the position at an aggressive pace. If all you can do is a 1.5 second reload while hauling ass, then doing a split load in this particular movement/shooting scenario may be the best plan of attack.

The most important thing is KNOWING which way is the most effective strategy by testing and measuring as you are doing. If anyone gets anything out of this thread I would hope that this simple fact is it. Most shooters don't want to put in the effort to do this type of testing themselves and that is the primary roadblock in them improving their performance.

Edited April 20, 2016 by CHA-LEE

[Jake Di Vita]

I get what you're saying - It seems like forever to aim and launch that shot, especially in slow motion - but I'm trying to work on ensuring the hit. I def. need to work on speeding up that process, but the focus has been on good movement out of position lately. I'll swing back towards getting more cavalier on the sights come May/June.

I totally get ensuring the hit. It isn't so much about how long the aiming takes, more about when it starts. My point was that if you are reloading coming into position, you can't possibly be getting on the sights. So that is time that you could be shooting that you aren't.

As soon as my leading foot enters the position I will be shooting from, I am aiming (earlier if the situation allows it). My goal is to minimize the time between stopping and shooting. If we look at the bottom video again, it appears that you are getting on the sights right about 2.36 then you shoot at 2.96. I would try to be on the sights by about 1.93 and using the same aiming time shooting by 2.53.

Definitely good discussion.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jake Di Vita