Shooter Time Verification

[CB45]

Can I request to see the timer before I ULSC?

The rulebook doesn't explicitly say I can or can't. Only that the course of fire is completed after Range is Clear.

[BritinUSA]

I don't think you can before ULASC but certainly afterwards.

The RO should hold the timer behind his/her back during ULASC so that the timer does not pick up the slide racking. The other option is for the RO to show the timer to the scorekeeper while calling ULASC so that the time can be written down before competitor shows clear.

[motosapiens]

you can request anything you want.

personally, as an RO (and relatively newly minted CRO) I am already in the habit of showing the timer to the scorekeeper immediately, and I would be more than happy to show it to the shooter as well (as long as there is no question of RO interference on the stage). I would suggest asking before you start your run, just to minimize the confusion and conversation during ULSC.

I would expect that based on recent reports and rumors, many people will want to see the timer, and that's not a bad thing. Trust, but verify.

Edited June 18, 2014 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

Absolutely! I will show a timer to anybody that wants to see it. The rules say a shooter is responsible for verifying what is on the score sheet so it stands to reason he has the right to see whats on the timer.

Just make sure you are right there and are quick about it. Don't hunt me down half way through scoring the stage and make me go back through all the splits because I bumped the timer multiple times since calling out the time. PLEASE

[Sarge]

Like somebody mentioned elsewhere. I see a lot of the big board timer gizmos coming to major events.

[alecmc]

Like somebody mentioned elsewhere. I see a lot of the big board timer gizmos coming to major events.

The Area 8 director had mentioned on facebook they will be utilizing the big boards for Area 8 this year

[BritinUSA]

The big boards are NOT always reliable. Only the timer being held by the RO should be used to confirm the time. The RO should show the timer to the scorekeeper as well as calling it out. I think they should also show the competitor the timer.

[thermobollocks]

Like somebody mentioned elsewhere. I see a lot of the big board timer gizmos coming to major events.

How do those work? Do they display the time as the shooter's shooting, so you can watch every split etc., or does the RO have to hit a go button?

I've never been to a place that used them.

[BritinUSA]

The timer sends the time to the board in real-time, so you can see the overall time and it increments with each shot fired.

[Thomas H]

The big boards are NOT always reliable. Only the timer being held by the RO should be used to confirm the time. The RO should show the timer to the scorekeeper as well as calling it out. I think they should also show the competitor the timer.

Regarding the Big Boards---exactly. I've heard that they work well if the timer can stay close to the boards (like in Steel Challenge matches), but that the boards don't necessarily always get the info from the timers at distances.

In other words, while I like the idea of the boards, I think that if they DO get used, there needs a be a disclaimer on any stage using them saying that the timer's stat (as stated by the RO and verified by the scoring RO) is the official time even if the board shows differently.

I think that calling the time and having the scoring RO verify it is sufficient, though of course any competitor should be able to look at the timer if they want.

[The Virus]

I wonder if here was some type of ongoing incident that was the inspiration for this topic?

[gacattack]

The big boards are NOT always reliable. Only the timer being held by the RO should be used to confirm the time. The RO should show the timer to the scorekeeper as well as calling it out. I think they should also show the competitor the timer.

Regarding the Big Boards---exactly. I've heard that they work well if the timer can stay close to the boards (like in Steel Challenge matches), but that the boards don't necessarily always get the info from the timers at distances.

In other words, while I like the idea of the boards, I think that if they DO get used, there needs a be a disclaimer on any stage using them saying that the timer's stat (as stated by the RO and verified by the scoring RO) is the official time even if the board shows differently.

I think that calling the time and having the scoring RO verify it is sufficient, though of course any competitor should be able to look at the timer if they want.

Spot on. It's the Scoring RO's duty to SEE the timer, and it's the shooter's option to see it if desired.

Just like we do at our club, Thomas!

[StreuB1]

I mentioned this on FB and this is how I was taught to RO.

-last shot, shooter is finished-

RO: "ULSCH"

RO: (LOUDLY) "TIME!!! SIXTY SEVEN FOURTY TWO!!!"

RO: (shows timer to shooter as score keeper recites time they are entering)

ScoreKeeper: (LOUDLY) "TIME, SIX SEVEN FOUR TWO!!"

RO: "Scoring is complete!!! RESET!"

This has the double checks in place and is loud so the other competitors can hear the time called, the verification called and the shooter verifies against the clock

[atbarr]

I wonder if here was some type of ongoing incident that was the inspiration for this topic?

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/06/18/range-officer-cheating-scandal-in-united-states-practical-shooting-association/

[frag316]

Like Brit said--I'll want you to go thru the ULSC and put the gun in the holster, but I'll happily show you the timer, once the scorekeeper has written down the time. Usually, that happens during the ULSC portion when I'm running a shooter, because I point the timer at the scorekeeper while I'm watching the competitor. When I give "range is clear," I read the time off of the timer and the scorekeeper repeats it back to me. If the competitor looks at the timer, he/she should see the same time being read back.

I picked up this habit pattern from a friend of mine, and I use it every time.

[frag316]

I mentioned this on FB and this is how I was taught to RO.

-last shot, shooter is finished-

RO: "ULSCH"

RO: (LOUDLY) "TIME!!! SIXTY SEVEN FOURTY TWO!!!"

RO: (shows timer to shooter as score keeper recites time they are entering)

ScoreKeeper: (LOUDLY) "TIME, SIX SEVEN FOUR TWO!!"

RO: "Scoring is complete!!! RESET!"

This has the double checks in place and is loud so the other competitors can hear the time called, the verification called and the shooter verifies against the clock

Uhh, I hope you scored the targets first . . . .

[MarkCO]

Like Brit said--I'll want you to go thru the ULSC and put the gun in the holster, but I'll happily show you the timer, once the scorekeeper has written down the time. Usually, that happens during the ULSC portion when I'm running a shooter, because I point the timer at the scorekeeper while I'm watching the competitor. When I give "range is clear," I read the time off of the timer and the scorekeeper repeats it back to me. If the competitor looks at the timer, he/she should see the same time being read back.

I picked up this habit pattern from a friend of mine, and I use it every time.

Best practice right there.

[StreuB1]

I mentioned this on FB and this is how I was taught to RO.

-last shot, shooter is finished-

RO: "ULSCH"

RO: (LOUDLY) "TIME!!! SIXTY SEVEN FOURTY TWO!!!"

RO: (shows timer to shooter as score keeper recites time they are entering)

ScoreKeeper: (LOUDLY) "TIME, SIX SEVEN FOUR TWO!!"

RO: "Scoring is complete!!! RESET!"

This has the double checks in place and is loud so the other competitors can hear the time called, the verification called and the shooter verifies against the clock

Uhh, I hope you scored the targets first . . . .

I was taught to RO by Paul, we don't score no targets!

[High Lord Gomer]

You can ask but I'm going to wait until I have given the "Range is clear" before I show it to you. I certainly don't want to stand there have a discussion while you're still holding a loaded gun. Same reason I was taught that if you stop someone you proceed directly through ULASC and ICHDH before discussing with them why you stopped them.

As long as I didn't interfere with the shooter (and therefore am going to offer a reshoot that they must accept or decline before seeing/hearing the time), I hold the timer so the other RO can see it. After that, I'd be happy to let you fiddle with the timer to see splits and shot count.

[StreuB1]

ULSCH - Unload Show Clear and Holster

[motosapiens]

You can ask but I'm going to wait until I have given the "Range is clear" before I show it to you. I certainly don't want to stand there have a discussion while you're still holding a loaded gun.

That is reasonable, and it makes sense to not call out the time before the shooter has indicated he is finished by unloading and showing clear (how many times have we heard "if you are finished, .... Blam Blam"), but you may also have to be prepared to back up and show the last split or two if the shooter desires.

After an inadvertent timer problem (bumped or picking up the slide forward and adding 5-8 seconds), I have gotten in the habit of glancing at the timer myself and then showing it to the scorekeeper as I am saying 'if you are finished....'.

[High Lord Gomer]

ULSCH - Unload Show Clear and Holster

It is worth it to take the RO class.

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

[alma]

I hold the timer behind me while I clear the shooter so that the scorekeeper can see it while I am paying attention to clearing and holstering. After that I call out the time and he calls it back. It's also helpful to get the timer back there so that it doesn't pick up the slide closing or hammer down actions.

[whitedog]

Timer shown to clip board person as I give ULSC. Then I call it. Then they repeat it. Always.

Simple and accurate.

Based on current events, I would not be surprised at a rule emerging stating a RO scoring procedure or something.

[Guest]

The CED Timer/Display boards are nice but as Thomas H said the time on the board is only for reference.

CED timers and display boards were used at the Steel Nationals and while the board displayed the correct time 95+% of the time, there were several times where the RF link dropped out or something and the board did not display the correct time and the distance between the timer and display was only about 20 feet. Also, the display board lags the hand held timer so after a run it takes the board a couple seconds to catch up with the hand held timer and display the final time.