jedpeters Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Is retrofitting a bushing into an sp-01 top end production legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Unfortunately not legal in production division. It has to come that way from the factory on the original gun. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Not legal, but it's not like the equipment check table has a list of Acc-Shadow serial numbers, so getting caught seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantom919 Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 You would at least need a Shadow slide for the above comment to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 This question and variations of it point out the shortcomings in production rules. The intent is that a level playing field is created by limiting allowed pistols to "stock" configurations. As written, there isn't any allowance for copying a "stock" configuration. So you can buy an accu shadow from CZC or AA, but not build it in your shop, even though there would be no visible or functional difference, nor any competitive advantage. Is it legal, no. Provided it was on a shadow slide would anyone know, no. Does it violate the spirit of the rules, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 So you can buy an accu shadow from CZC or AA, but not build it in your shop, even though there would be no visible or functional difference, nor any competitive advantage. Not just work at home. You can send it back to CZC to do the work. Gives you an identical gun in every way but with one the work was done before you purchased it and with the other it is done after; one perfectly Production legal and the other not. This problem isn't exclusive to CZ ACCU bushings. You also can't do something as simple as run a Glock 34 slide on a Glock 17. I really think there needs to be a provision to allow for modification of one Production gun to be legal if made to be exactly like another Production gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Alma- I think you and I are saying the same thing. I'd go one step farther though. Striker fired or DA/SA pistol, 10 rd capacity. Make it fit in a box and have a min/max weight. Done and done. Level playing field, and none of this is it or isn't it legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 The only two things preventing the rules from making any sense are JA & VP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorfish Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Let me see if I understand this... CZ Custom takes regular Shadows, does some machining and adds a part(s) and issues them as Accu-Shadows. So in the eyes of USPSA, CZ Custom is a "manufacturer" or at the very least a "recognized" part of the process of final manufacturing for CZ. The only difference is where the original/stock Shadow comes from. The original stock Shadow could come from CZUSA or if I send them my Shadow they could in effect "re-issue" my pistol as an Accu-Shadow as they are in fact the "manufacturer" of the Accu-Shadow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Let me see if I understand this... CZ Custom takes regular Shadows, does some machining and adds a part(s) and issues them as Accu-Shadows. So in the eyes of USPSA, CZ Custom is a "manufacturer" or at the very least a "recognized" part of the process of final manufacturing for CZ. The only difference is where the original/stock Shadow comes from. The original stock Shadow could come from CZUSA or if I send them my Shadow they could in effect "re-issue" my pistol as an Accu-Shadow as they are in fact the "manufacturer" of the Accu-Shadow. Hmmm. Logic. Better not go there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Exactly. In this particular situation, I side with IPSC, which has more stringent rules and does not recognize CZ-USA or CZC as original manufacturer. One is a distributor and the other a custom shop. Let me see if I understand this... CZ Custom takes regular Shadows, does some machining and adds a part(s) and issues them as Accu-Shadows. So in the eyes of USPSA, CZ Custom is a "manufacturer" or at the very least a "recognized" part of the process of final manufacturing for CZ. The only difference is where the original/stock Shadow comes from. The original stock Shadow could come from CZUSA or if I send them my Shadow they could in effect "re-issue" my pistol as an Accu-Shadow as they are in fact the "manufacturer" of the Accu-Shadow. Hmmm. Logic. Better not go there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magsz Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Exactly. In this particular situation, I side with IPSC, which has more stringent rules and does not recognize CZ-USA or CZC as original manufacturer. One is a distributor and the other a custom shop. Let me see if I understand this... CZ Custom takes regular Shadows, does some machining and adds a part(s) and issues them as Accu-Shadows. So in the eyes of USPSA, CZ Custom is a "manufacturer" or at the very least a "recognized" part of the process of final manufacturing for CZ. The only difference is where the original/stock Shadow comes from. The original stock Shadow could come from CZUSA or if I send them my Shadow they could in effect "re-issue" my pistol as an Accu-Shadow as they are in fact the "manufacturer" of the Accu-Shadow. Hmmm. Logic. Better not go there Money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon49erfan Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Reading through the 2014 rule book, what rule prohibits it? The only thing I see is external mods must be available on another approved gun from the same mfg. Does than not cover the accubushing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Reading through the 2014 rule book, what rule prohibits it? The only thing I see is external mods must be available on another approved gun from the same mfg. Does than not cover the accubushing? I liked where you were going with that but, D4 21.6 "Exchange of minor EXTERNAL components" says Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OEM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. so far so good I think the bushing would fit the bill so far but, D4 21.2b says "Milling of slide — only as required to insert sights." I don't think you can install the bushing without machining the slide so it is not a approved modification. I understand why people complain about the strict rules governing modifications to production guns, but I would like to point out that they are the reason we now have these cool guns on the market, if you could do the mod to a stock gun the manufacturers would never have introduced specific models for our game. bassically production division as flawed as it is has made better guns available to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon49erfan Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Ah, didn't think of that. Is the slide milled, or is it threaded though? I guess that part is just semantics. Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) This question and variations of it point out the shortcomings in production rules. The intent is that a level playing field is created by limiting allowed pistols to "stock" configurations. As written, there isn't any allowance for copying a "stock" configuration. So you can buy an accu shadow from CZC or AA, but not build it in your shop, even though there would be no visible or functional difference, nor any competitive advantage. Is it legal, no. Provided it was on a shadow slide would anyone know, no. Does it violate the spirit of the rules, no. It does not violate the spirit of the rules, which is to provide a level playing field. Building an accu shadow would not tilt the playing field. It would, however, violate the letter of the rules as it is prohibited. The problem is that the literal rule violates the spirit of the rules. This should be changed. Edited June 18, 2014 by lawboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czhase Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Drop in Accu upper, this should add to the fun. http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowacculiteupper.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quack Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Drop in Accu upper, this should add to the fun. http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowacculiteupper.aspx but would that be illegal like putting a G17 slide on G22 frame? Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon49erfan Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 It should be. The rule book says you can swap slides as long as long as it's the same length, contour, and caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Drop in Accu upper, this should add to the fun. http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowacculiteupper.aspx ORLY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 hmm. that is cool. buy an SP01 sell standard upper fit accu upper enter USPSA match ????? profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 hmm. that is cool. buy an SP01 sell standard upper fit accu upper enter USPSA match ????? profit Even better if CZC offered an exchange program. Send in your upper, and get $x off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) hmm. that is cool. buy an SP01 sell standard upper fit accu upper enter USPSA match ????? profit That scenarios minus the ACCU has been covered ad nauseum. You can't do it with a standard SP01 frame since it has the safety plunger and in Production you are not allowed to modify to disable any safeties. Edited June 19, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGus Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Does anyone have an actual ruling from Amidon of "yea" or "nay" if a Shadow slide retrofitted with an Accu bushing is Production legal or not, assuming it's also on an SP01 Shadow frame? That would clear this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Does anyone have an actual ruling from Amidon of "yea" or "nay" if a Shadow slide retrofitted with an Accu bushing is Production legal or not, assuming it's also on an SP01 Shadow frame? That would clear this up. I don't ask if you aren't ready to except the clarification. Sometime ambiguity can be your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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