Givo08 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) I've seen a recent discussion regarding Bob Vogel turning a weaponlight into a frame weight. He mentioned on a Facebook post that he removed the bulb and batteries to make it compliant with limited division rules and confirmed this with HQ. Is removing the bulb required or does it just have to be non-functioning as it is mounted on the gun, i.e. Can it just be a light without batteries so it doesn't actually turn on? Edited June 10, 2014 by Givo08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I see the prohibition on flashlights in Appendix D2 for Limited but it strikes me as being pretty strange. I see there is no restrictions for this in Open so I guess that makes it about the actual functionality and not the weight? Does that mean that an Open shooter could leave a mounted light on during any course of fire? Now sure that would be a benefit but it's interesting to note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trp Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I think he's only useing that for ipsc but not sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Every match you showed up at with a light on your gun would move you to open. Then you would have to hem and haw with the MD/RM for god knows how long to have a chance of leaving it on. And then some may still not let you use it. I would not even bother going through all of that. Edit to add: I have no idea how BV got that approved if he did for USPSA. The rules don't say a damn thing about it being working or not. It simply says INSTALLED flashlights are not permitted. Edited June 11, 2014 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Just replace the flashlight tube with a pipe packed with weights of your choice. The interesting thing though would be to fill the pipe with shock absorbing material, or some kind stabilizer like used for steadicams. Limited does not allow electronics for sights, but the rules say nothing about electronics for stabilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Why a light? Why not some other Picatinny accessory? Maybe something like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Usually there are ready made holsters that accommodate flashlights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Givo08 Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Edit to add: I have no idea how BV got that approved if he did for USPSA. The rules don't say a damn thing about it being working or not. It simply says INSTALLED flashlights are not permitted. But frame mounted weights ARE approved, which leads me to believe the light emitting feature of a flashlight is the reason for the rule and not the weight. The post I saw Bob make was a video of him shooting a USPSA match stage with it on and commenting that it was for USPSA Limited and IPSC Standard division. The other nice thing about a light setup as a weight, as mentioned above, is that it already has battery tubes that you could fill up with whatever you wanted in order to get the weight exactly where you wanted it to be. Edited June 11, 2014 by Givo08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Seems like it would've been easier to use the SJC weight. http://stores.sjcguns.com/sjc-glock-frame-weight/ Vogel had a RLN make him a custom holster anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 But frame mounted weights ARE approved, which leads me to believe the light emitting feature of a flashlight is the reason for the rule and not the weight. The other nice thing about a light setup as a weight, as mentioned above, is that it already has battery tubes that you could fill up with whatever you wanted in order to get the weight exactly where you wanted it to be. Reason for the rule does not matter if you violate the plain meaning. Flashlights are prohibited in the Limited Division. It doesn't matter if it works or not. Filling your flashlight with BBs or fishing sinkers still makes it a flashlight, just one that doesn't work well for lighting things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 But frame mounted weights ARE approved, which leads me to believe the light emitting feature of a flashlight is the reason for the rule and not the weight. The other nice thing about a light setup as a weight, as mentioned above, is that it already has battery tubes that you could fill up with whatever you wanted in order to get the weight exactly where you wanted it to be. Reason for the rule does not matter if you violate the plain meaning. Flashlights are prohibited in the Limited Division. It doesn't matter if it works or not. Filling your flashlight with BBs or fishing sinkers still makes it a flashlight, just one that doesn't work well for lighting things up. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Anyone showing up and saying HQ approved it I would ask for the written NROI document which approves the rule interpretation. The more I see the more ridiculous things are getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Is there an award for dorkiest looking gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'm quite sure that the first time somebody showed up with a tube red dot sight on their gun many years ago, everyone thought that it looked pretty dorky until they started winning with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'm quite sure that the first time somebody showed up with a tube red dot sight on their gun many years ago, everyone thought that it looked pretty dorky until they started winning with it. Was that the Burner? My USPSA history doesn't go that far back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Reason for the rule does not matter if you violate the plain meaning. Flashlights are prohibited in the Limited Division. It doesn't matter if it works or not. Anyone showing up and saying HQ approved it I would ask for the written NROI document which approves the rule interpretation. I will be honest, I would have posted something similar, but I emailed Amidon and based on his response, I would have been wrong. DNROI is the final word on rules interpretation and the email back from Amidon was pretty clear that as long as the light emitting device has been removed from the light, it is just a piece of metal and therefore allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Reason for the rule does not matter if you violate the plain meaning. Flashlights are prohibited in the Limited Division. It doesn't matter if it works or not. Anyone showing up and saying HQ approved it I would ask for the written NROI document which approves the rule interpretation. I will be honest, I would have posted something similar, but I emailed Amidon and based on his response, I would have been wrong. DNROI is the final word on rules interpretation and the email back from Amidon was pretty clear that as long as the light emitting device has been removed from the light, it is just a piece of metal and therefore allowed. Unbelievable.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Could you hang a reddot on a limited gun if the glass and laser components were removed? based on this it would see to fall into a similar category. The weight on the weapons light is not the reason that it is banned but it's because of the functionality itself. If that functionality is removed then you should be good to go based on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I don't think functionality should play a part. The rules say "flashlight". Not working flashlight or functional flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I agree with Sarge. It's still a flashlight whether it works or if its been disabled. It'll be like walking into a public school with an unloaded gun... "It's not a gun. It's a paperweight." you tell arresting officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Givo08 Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share Posted June 13, 2014 I don't think functionality should play a part. The rules say "flashlight". Not working flashlight or functional flashlight. But if it has no bulb or batteries and it's being used to house weight, it's not a flashlight anymore, it's a homemade frame weight. Seems like it would've been easier to use the SJC weight. http://stores.sjcguns.com/sjc-glock-frame-weight/ Vogel had a RLN make him a custom holster anyway... The problem with the sjc frame weight is the mounting mechanism is finicky. I've seen one fly off under recoil and there is even a thread on here discussing how to modify the mounting hardware so it stays on. The weaponlight manufacturers have much more robust mounting systems, not to mention the holster availability for guns with lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 So, I guess they need to change the wording to "Illuminating device" If it was built as a light, it is a light. If it says "INSIGHT MX3" It was designed to be a light not a weight. Were I assigned to chrono at a major, I would still ask for a definitive answer from NROI or a published ruling. It is not up to me to say it is not a light. If the batteries are dead or missing is it no longer a light???? SMH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Batteries don't matter, just the light emitting part has to be removed according to Amidon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 so by some of your definitions any tube that could be made to hold light bulb would be forever considered a flashlight? noun: flashlight; plural noun: flashlights 1. North American a battery-operated portable light. it seems to me a assembly with no way of making or emitting light is no longer a flashlight, even if some of the parts involved started life as part of a flashlight assembly. if you cut the compensator ports off the end of a old cone comp and put it on a limited gun barrel as a muzzle weight would it still be a comp? I don't think so it would just be a weight, even though it was designed and sold as a compensator it has since been modified to be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I will say it again. Unbelievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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