CMV Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 There has to be a line drawn somewhere. What makes it a flashlight? If you remove the bulb is it a flashlight with no bulb or a small container capable of holding weight and being attached to a pistol? Both…so while the ruling may seem arbitrary, its probably just as good as ruling it any other way. Just makes it easier to make a frame weight and have it fit in a holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Don't ask me, I am just relaying what DNROI said. I am not saying I agree with the interpretation one way or the other, but the rulebook is clear that the DNROI has the final say on rules interpretations. So, unless something changes, that is the way it is. As a MD/RM/RO, my job is to make sure that the rules are followed, regardless of what I think about them. As a member of USPSA, if I want a rule changed or clarified in the rulebook, I have the path to contact my AD and give him or her my thoughts on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flack jacket Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Ughhh. Upgrade to different platform that has the weight / swing weight you desire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I will say it again. Unbelievable Seems pretty logical to me. If you remove the bulb, you just have a tube, not a flashlight. If the weight is legal, I don't really understand the desire to complicate things and make it harder for people to use existing readily-available items. Who benefits by forcing people to purchase a purpose-built 'weight' that was never called a light, even tho it might share the same parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I will say it again. Unbelievable Seems pretty logical to me. If you remove the bulb, you just have a tube, not a flashlight. If the weight is legal, I don't really understand the desire to complicate things and make it harder for people to use existing readily-available items. Who benefits by forcing people to purchase a purpose-built 'weight' that was never called a light, even tho it might share the same parts? You're thinking way too rationally Mark by that rationale a Production shooter who assembles a Production legal gun from parts should be good to go, but we all know that's not the case; instead shooters are force to pay double retail for the hottest new Production gun just because it rolled out of the factory that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I will say it again. Unbelievable Seems pretty logical to me. If you remove the bulb, you just have a tube, not a flashlight. If the weight is legal, I don't really understand the desire to complicate things and make it harder for people to use existing readily-available items. Who benefits by forcing people to purchase a purpose-built 'weight' that was never called a light, even tho it might share the same parts? You're thinking way too rationally Mark by that rationale a Production shooter who assembles a Production legal gun from parts should be good to go, but we all know that's not the case; instead shooters are force to pay double retail for the hottest new Production gun just because it rolled out of the factory that way. Good point. I was just thinking to myself how nice it would be if all our rules made sense. At least the rule you're talking about gives me an excuse to just buy a ready-made blaster straight from czcustom or matt mink and not have to put my own scratches on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I will say it again. Unbelievable Why is it unbelieveable? Is there more to be gained by turning a rail mounted light into a weight, than having a weight added to a new gun? Or using another type of weight? It irritates the crap out of me when people get so angry about gaming a stage or thinking outside the box, but still within the rules. I can see an uproar if frame mounted weights were not legal, but they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Three cheers for interpretations of rules that are actually in line with the rules initial objectives. In this case that is that you can't have a light in Limited and not that you couldn't clamp weight to the rail. Sometimes rules miss the mark of their intended objectives or develop a life of their own devoid of the original purpose for making the rule. Sometimes rules are poorly written or implemented and never achieve their intended objectives. I think it is useful to step back sometimes and ask why something is actually illegal given the current rules and see whether it still makes sense. Edited June 13, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Could you hang a reddot on a limited gun if the glass and laser components were removed? based on this it would see to fall into a similar category. That's a homemade ghost ring sight, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I will say it again. Unbelievable Seems pretty logical to me. If you remove the bulb, you just have a tube, not a flashlight. If the weight is legal, I don't really understand the desire to complicate things and make it harder for people to use existing readily-available items. Who benefits by forcing people to purchase a purpose-built 'weight' that was never called a light, even tho it might share the same parts? Why not just allow the light? I am not against weapon mounted lights in Limited, L10, revolver or open. I am just not agreeing with what Mark says is the interpretation (Not doubting you Mark but is has not been published anywhere and needs to be) My M&P 45 has a light. I have to take it off for L10. Yeah, I'm afraid of the dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 So .. I can fill the battery compartment with lead shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I have a long tube with a bulb and batteries in it laying in my junk drawer in the garage. Batteries are dead and it doesn't light up. I guarantee you that it's a flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 And to clarify, we have been here before a while back. John Amidon's opinion is not an official ruling. As of right now the only rule in place says flashlights are not permitted in any division but open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Guys, before you get out the torches and pitchforks again, remember that weights were illegal in the last rule book: 22 ProhibitedmodificationsExternal modifications or features such as weights or devices tocontrol or reduce recoil (such as but not limited to thumb rests orcomponents which could be used as such). Flashlights were a gamers way to add weight so it was stopped. Now that the rules for L/L-10 have changed, the rule should probably be deleted. It looks like it is now an undocumented option. I guess someone better tell Rob, Nils and Taran to get that light, I mean weight on their firearms so they can start winning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 So .. I can fill the battery compartment with lead shot?fill the battery compartment of what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Kevin, sorry but you are grossly mistaken. Amidon IS the DNROI and his interpretation IS the official ruling! 11.8 Interpretation of Rules 11.8.1 Interpretation of these rules and regulations is the responsibility of the USPSA Director of NROI. 11.8.2 Persons seeking clarification of any rule are required to submit their questions in writing, either by fax, letter or email to NROI headquarters. DNROI Jun 11 (2 days ago) to me Mark, Without the light and barries it is a piece of metal, with the light, it is a light whether the batteries are in it or not. John From: Mark P [mailto:markpcolo@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:22 PMTo: John AmidonSubject: Post on Enos I've seen a recent discussion regarding Bob Vogel turning a weaponlight into a frame weight. He mentioned on a Facebook post that he removed the bulb and batteries to make it compliant with limited division rules and confirmed this with HQ. Is removing the bulb required or does it just have to be non-functioning as it is mounted on the gun, i.e. Can it just be a light without batteries so it doesn't actually turn on? Is that legit or not? Mark L3435 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I have a long tube with a bulb and batteries in it laying in my junk drawer in the garage. Batteries are dead and it doesn't light up. I guarantee you that it's a flashlight. the question is what makes a light a light? I am strongly inclined to say it is the LIGHT emitting parts, if it is a tube with batteries with no bulb then it is just a tube full of batteries, if it has no batteries or bulb then it is just a tube, if it has no bulb or batteries and is full of lead shot then it is a tube full of lead shot, the fact that the side of the tube may be printed or engraved with the name and logo of a flash light company is irrelevant. all that said I would like to see the rule against lights removed from the divisions that allow weights I would just want it to be replaced with a rule against having the light on, otherwise the beams will get really focused and turn into a sighting system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 So .. I can fill the battery compartment with lead shot?fill the battery compartment of what? of the item that was a flashlight before the bulb was removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I have a long tube with a bulb and batteries in it laying in my junk drawer in the garage. Batteries are dead and it doesn't light up. I guarantee you that it's a flashlight. if it has a bulb, sure it's a flashlight. Duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) I propose the rule be changed to "electronic devices are prohibited" but as it stands I agree with Sarge, a flashlight is a flashlight whether it works or not. The rule says no flashlights, it doesn't say you can't shine light on targets. If you mount a piece of pipe on your gun and fill it with lead it's a pipe filled with lead; if you mount a flashlight, remove the batteries/bulb and fill it with lead it's a flashlight which doesn't emit light, but it's still a flashlight.If Amidon said a flashlight is not a flashlight once you remove the bulb he's not being very rationally consistent with the rulings he's given me in the past... Edited June 13, 2014 by kneelingatlas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 If Amidon said a flashlight is not a flashlight once you remove the bulb he's not being very rationally consistent with the rulings he's given me in the past... Heh. Well .. Anyway .. I foresee this getting very amusing. I can imagine a scenario where flashlights without bulbs are legal, but the battery compartment can only contain batteries not lead shot. Of course true gamers will now purchase every brand of battery and compare weights and tune their weight flashlight to the load in true gamer fashion. Lithium batteries for light steel loads, old fashioned alkaline ones being heaviers would be used for major loads. Mark my words, this is the begining of a creepy relationship between the action shooting min/max gamers and the flashlight fetishists from candle power forums .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Kevin, sorry but you are grossly mistaken. Amidon IS the DNROI and his interpretation IS the official ruling! 11.8 Interpretation of Rules 11.8.1 Interpretation of these rules and regulations is the responsibility of the USPSA Director of NROI. 11.8.2 Persons seeking clarification of any rule are required to submit their questions in writing, either by fax, letter or email to NROI headquarters. DNROI Jun 11 (2 days ago) to me Mark, Without the light and barries it is a piece of metal, with the light, it is a light whether the batteries are in it or not. John From: Mark P [mailto:markpcolo@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:22 PM To: John Amidon Subject: Post on Enos I've seen a recent discussion regarding Bob Vogel turning a weaponlight into a frame weight. He mentioned on a Facebook post that he removed the bulb and batteries to make it compliant with limited division rules and confirmed this with HQ. Is removing the bulb required or does it just have to be non-functioning as it is mounted on the gun, i.e. Can it just be a light without batteries so it doesn't actually turn on? Is that legit or not? Mark L3435 nopeNot according to what we determined last time this happened. I actually thought his word was gospel and got corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I'm quite sure that the first time somebody showed up with a tube red dot sight on their gun many years ago, everyone thought that it looked pretty dorky until they started winning with it. Still looks dorky to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The rules do not say things that were designed to be flashlights are illegal. It says flashlights are illegal. If the object that formerly could produce a beam of projected light is rendered incapable of doing so, then it is not a flashlight. It is an object that used to be a flashlight. Makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The rules do not say things that were designed to be flashlights are illegal. It says flashlights are illegal. If the object that formerly could produce a beam of projected light is rendered incapable of doing so, then it is not a flashlight. It is an object that used to be a flashlight. Makes sense to me. OK Bill Clinton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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