Working to Understand Tanfoglios Better

[Moltke]

I'm in the process of deciding what to switch to for 2015's USPSA Production pistol & the accuracy capabilities of the available guns seem to be pretty similar between Glocks, MPs, XDs, Sigs, Berettas, etc. Some do better than others with nice triggers or fitted parts, but most of the real advantages lie outside of the Production legal modifications (for example here - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=180206&hl=).

Then I have heard alot about the CZ's and Tanfo's having a significant mechanical advantage in accuracy, also with significant improvements in their trigger pulls, being heavier guns they absorb more recoil, and have some neat competitive advantages inside the Production game... so here I am trying to learn more.

Now I have been shooting Glocks for the past decade and don't compare every trigger to a 1911 like some, but I also understand the Glock trigger mechanism isn't perfect and I've been through my fair share of adaptations to make it "better". For a dedicated gamer gun, I would like to have the sharpest shooting, lightest recoiling pistol with the nicest sights, nicest trigger, etc - and not find myself outgunned at a competition.

So I was wondering because I've been browsing the Tanfo sub-section if you could help me out to understand the Stock I / II / III differences because there's alot of threads out there to sift through. I've been reading through them for a while and yes, some interesting information presented but not super helpful because my complete lack of knowledge about these guns.

I look on the Production list and find that these are the Tanfo's legal for Production -
http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php

• Stock (40.6 oz.)
• Stock II (44 oz.)
• Stock II L 4.93" barrel 9mm 9X21 (45.85 oz.)
• Stock II Xtreme 4.50" barrel 9mm (44.09 oz.)
• Stock III 9X21 and 38 Super (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III (witness Elite) 4.93" (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III 9mm (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Special 4.93" Barrel 9 (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Xtreme 4.93" Barrel9mm (45.85 oz.)

So it seems the 9mm versions with the longer sight radius are -

• Stock III (witness Elite) 4.93" (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Special 4.93" Barrel 9 (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Xtreme 4.93" Barrel9mm (45.85 oz.)

Am I reading that right? What are 9x23 versions, are they worth looking into? And what are the differences between the "witness elite", the "special", and the "extreme"? When I look on this webpage I only see the Witness Stock III in the upper right.
http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/stock-iii-tanfoglio/

[Yagi]

I think the important question for now in production is where and when can you avail of one or two...

[Torogi]

I think right now, its which one can you get.

EDIT: the special blend Stock II and Stock IIIs are rare here in US. I would stick to 9x19. Im sure if you do it right, with the right skill set, you won't be outgunned with any gun.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Torogi

[miwa-san]

Limited Pro is also an option, longer sight radius and shorter dust cover than the stock II

[kneelingatlas]

Stock IIs in 9mm are rare in the states right now, Stock IIIs in 9mm are rarer and the Xtreame line are the most elusive. CZ SP-01s are easy to get right now, and SP-01 Shadows are starting to come back so I wouldn't rule out CZ; plus I have both and feel confident saying the CZs have more potential when it comes to a light, smooth trigger than their Italian counterparts.

You'll see strange barrel lengths around but the full sized CZ75 pistols have 4.5" barrels as do the "standard" length Tanfoglios, while the "longslide" Tanfoglios have 4.75" barrels when measured from the breech to muzzle per SAAMI standards.

[bayougump]

Yes, I'd start with whatever you can find and narrow from there but I'm afraid it'll be a short list.

Sent from my flux capacitor

[BeerBaron]

like kneelingatlas I have both CZ shadow (2 of them actually) and a tanfoglio stock II (both 9mm and 38 super).

My stock 2 is actually what's called a stock 2 limited and has the longer 4.75inch dustcover and barrel but that's really a minor difference.

The stock II is:

nicer looking

better sights from factory (adjustable rear is quite usable)

great feeling grip size and frame for people with larger hands (lovely checkering front and backstrap)

nice quality parts on it

high quality bull barrel (cone lockup and poly rifling)

The CZ shadow has:

no firing pin block (this can be a big deal to some,. but at the least it does remove one part of your trigger pull)

lots of parts options (20 different types of grips, probably 3 different production legal hammers, a bunch of triggers, sights both front and rear, springs etc)

better trigger out of the box

easy to change mainsprings as you wish (tanfog needs hammer to come out for that!)

very easy to work on

with just a few hundred in parts you can have a DA pull which is stack free and nice and smooth at 6lb and a SA of under 3lb which is very crisp. that's basically unpossibly for a stock II.

lots of support in the US with both CZC and CGW and CZ USA offering lots of parts and support

it's cheaper than a stock II as well

I would look for a CZ SP01 Shadow. start with that.

Otherwise a limited pro is a good option if you can find one in 9mm. I love my stock II, but I seem to shoot my CZ more as the trigger is quite a bit nicer. particularly the DA.

[Gary1911A1]

I have a Stock in 9MM with the older Supersight as they were called and a CZ Shadow too. Both are good pistols and I don't think you can go wrong with either. Myself I seem to prefer the larger frame of the Stock.

[bayougump]

I have a large frame Stock I in 9mm, stock II in 9mm large frame, and a Stock III coming tomorrow in .40 and they are all great pistols. I don't like the Stock I as much since doesn't have full dust cover but I think part of that is just I'm so used to shooting my Stock II. Probably will sell my Stock I in coming months and look for either another Stock III or a Limited. Again, the stock I is a great gun and is good for production but just personal preference.

Sent from my flux capacitor

[Kahai808]

Like everyone stated the Tanfo's will be hard to find. I almost went the CZ Shadow route before i found my two Stock 2's. BeerBaron mentioned that he dropped a few hundred in parts for the trigger to feel crisp, well i think i spent about $40 and some elbow grease. But the trade off is you'll spend more on the inital purchase of the Tanfo! I do agree that the CZ triggers are very very very nice. It doest "stack up" like the tanfo's. The main spring on the CZ is much longer so it doesnt compress as much as the tanfo. But i still have not problems with my DA pull and accurate shots.

Tanfo Stock 2 Pro's (Its what i own):

-Better sights (Adjustable rear)

-Internal Magwell

-Coned bull barrel

-Full Dust Cover

-Very beaver tail

-They just look sweet!

Cons:

-Shitty trigger pull from the factory

-Very small internal parts (makes it difficult to work on without the right tools)\

-Parts (there are few people that stock tanfo parts, but you may have to order from graffel in europe)

I cant speak on the shadow because i have only had the chance to mess with one but what i do know is the trigger does feel great. CZ Custom does a great job on your pistols! You an actually find these pistols.

all in all if you can find a stock 1/2/3 i would buy it, but i think the Shadow is a better route. parts are also easier to come across. Leave more tanfo's for me lol!

[Torogi]

like kneelingatlas I have both CZ shadow (2 of them actually) and a tanfoglio stock II (both 9mm and 38 super).

My stock 2 is actually what's called a stock 2 limited and has the longer 4.75inch dustcover and barrel but that's really a minor difference.

Stopped reading after this. That is my dream production gun. Stock 2 Limited. The Aussie one.

[Moltke]

Limited Pro is also an option, longer sight radius and shorter dust cover than the stock II

Could you please link the one you mean?

[Moltke]

Thanks for the information and advice everyone.

I'm not concerned about when something might be available because I'm in no hurry.

I'm surprised to see the CZ recommendations in the Tanfo subforum but OK point taken.

[Moltke]

So, I removed the 9x23 caliber and the ones with a longer sight radius are bold, which I'd prefer if given a choice.

• Stock (40.6 oz.)
• Stock II (44 oz.)
• Stock II Xtreme 4.50" barrel 9mm (44.09 oz.)
• Stock III (witness Elite) 4.93" (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III 9mm (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Special 4.93" Barrel 9 (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Xtreme 4.93" Barrel9mm (45.85 oz.)

So can anyone explain the differences between "special", "elite", or "xtreme".

Is there any one that is more desirable than another?

Or is there any reason to consider a 4.5" barrel if the 4.93" is available?

[Nealio]

So, I removed the 9x23 caliber and the ones with a longer sight radius are bold, which I'd prefer if given a choice.

• Stock (40.6 oz.)
• Stock II (44 oz.)
• Stock II Xtreme 4.50" barrel 9mm (44.09 oz.)
• Stock III (witness Elite) 4.93" (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III 9mm (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Special 4.93" Barrel 9 (45.85 oz.)
• Stock III Xtreme 4.93" Barrel9mm (45.85 oz.)

So can anyone explain the differences between "special", "elite", or "xtreme".

Is there any one that is more desirable than another?

Or is there any reason to consider a 4.5" barrel if the 4.93" is available?

Swing weight and balance. The Stock II with the 4.5" barrel balances nicely and transitions very well. The heavier front will soak up more recoil, but then also be slower on transitions.

[Moltke]

I see the weight difference from the lightest Stock II and the heaviest Stock III is 5.25 ounces... on a 40.6-45.85 ounce pistol (unloaded).

So while shooting the gun loaded (more weight) is that difference so unevenly distributed that it's noticeable? How do sights track while getting going and getting stopped on a transition?

[Nealio]

A full mag is right inside your hands,so it doesn't effect the balance or the transition dynamics of the gun as much as weight on the end of the gun (ie longer slide/dust cover).

Between my 6" and my 4.75" guns, there is a very noticeable difference. The longer/heavier gun tracks better when firing and soaks up the recoil better. The shorter/lighter gun transitions faster (less issues with overshooting your marks) but there is more felt recoil. To me its similar to comparing an STI to my Limited gun. The STI shoots softer, but feels heavy and slow in recoil and transitions.

Between my Stock I (4.5") (or my buddy's Stock II) and my Limited (4.75") gun there is a slight difference that can be felt, but not a lot.

[miwa-san]

Limited Pro is also an option, longer sight radius and shorter dust cover than the stock II

Could you please link the one you mean?

Sure, here ya go. I was lucky enough to fine one in 9mm, works great for production

http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/witness-elite-limited-pro/

[zsavage81]

I shoot a 9mm stock II in USPSA production. I agree with the trigger comments as stated, if your biggest concern is the trigger then go with a CZ. Here are the reasons I choose to shot a Stock II (not in any order)

1) mechanical accuracy, I've seen 1.5" groups at 50 yards out of these guns. When you sling that mike at a 5 yard target you don't have to wonder if it was you or the gun.........it was you.

2) ergonomics, gun points awesome, feels great in my hands.

3) checkering, it's super aggressive allowing a rock solid grip. No need for skate tape or any of that other crap.

4) gaping magwell, your not gonna find anything bigger on a production gun. It's awesome.

5) steel body mags. They have weight, drop free great, go in great, and are durable.

6) adjustable rear sight, saves like $100 right off the cut that you'd spend on a adjustable rear sight on any other gun youd buy.

7) weight, it's a full oz heavier than the CZ. Not sure about the slow transition talk above, my splits and transitions have gotten a lot faster since I switched to the tanfo. The gun soaks up a ton of recoil.

8) drops the slide on slide lock reloads out of the box (at least mine did).

9) Eric G shoots one and that guy is a BALLER.

[Kahai808]

9) Eric G shoots one and that guy is a BALLER.

My reason for having a Stock II

[Kahai808]

Thanks for the information and advice everyone.

I'm not concerned about when something might be available because I'm in no hurry.

I'm surprised to see the CZ recommendations in the Tanfo subforum but OK point taken.

If your not worried about time then i would wait it out for the Tanfo, i hope your on the classified section alot. They go real fast or really expensive! Everyone is recommending the CZ because they want the Tanfo's for themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moltke]

Limited Pro is also an option, longer sight radius and shorter dust cover than the stock II

Could you please link the one you mean?

Sure, here ya go. I was lucky enough to fine one in 9mm, works great for production

http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/witness-elite-limited-pro/

See thats interesting because I found the Limited Pro on the list but not the "elite"

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php

Like, I see these:

Limited Pro 9x19 9x21 .38 Super (42.3 oz.)

Limited Pro (Witness limited Pro) (42.3 oz.)

But all the Stock I / II / III models have designations "elite" or something else and they are described as such:

Stock III 9mm (45.85 oz.)

Stock III (witness Elite) 4.93" (45.85 oz.)

Stock III Special 4.93" Barrel 9 (45.85 oz.)

Stock III Xtreme 4.93" Barrel9mm (45.85 oz.)

[Moltke]

A full mag is right inside your hands,so it doesn't effect the balance or the transition dynamics of the gun as much as weight on the end of the gun (ie longer slide/dust cover).

Between my 6" and my 4.75" guns, there is a very noticeable difference. The longer/heavier gun tracks better when firing and soaks up the recoil better. The shorter/lighter gun transitions faster (less issues with overshooting your marks) but there is more felt recoil. To me its similar to comparing an STI to my Limited gun. The STI shoots softer, but feels heavy and slow in recoil and transitions.

Between my Stock I (4.5") (or my buddy's Stock II) and my Limited (4.75") gun there is a slight difference that can be felt, but not a lot.

I guess I'm more interested in any difference that can be "seen" not "felt" during recoil / transitions but I hear what you're saying.

Plus loaded or unloaded is irrelevant anyway because its a 10rd magazine and not always going to be loaded to full anyway such as 1/2 way through an array of targets it changes. I don't think the weight difference between a 4.5" or 4.93" gun would be significant but the initial switch from a 27 ounce Glock to a 45 ounce Tanfo might take a little getting used to..!

[Nealio]

Yeah I don't know how you would "see" the difference.

[Moltke]

I shoot a 9mm stock II in USPSA production. I agree with the trigger comments as stated, if your biggest concern is the trigger then go with a CZ. Here are the reasons I choose to shot a Stock II (not in any order)

1) mechanical accuracy, I've seen 1.5" groups at 50 yards out of these guns. When you sling that mike at a 5 yard target you don't have to wonder if it was you or the gun.........it was you.

2) ergonomics, gun points awesome, feels great in my hands.

3) checkering, it's super aggressive allowing a rock solid grip. No need for skate tape or any of that other crap.

4) gaping magwell, your not gonna find anything bigger on a production gun. It's awesome.

5) steel body mags. They have weight, drop free great, go in great, and are durable.

6) adjustable rear sight, saves like $100 right off the cut that you'd spend on a adjustable rear sight on any other gun youd buy.

7) weight, it's a full oz heavier than the CZ. Not sure about the slow transition talk above, my splits and transitions have gotten a lot faster since I switched to the tanfo. The gun soaks up a ton of recoil.

8) drops the slide on slide lock reloads out of the box (at least mine did).

9) Eric G shoots one and that guy is a BALLER.

I agree with these being unique advantages over other Production guns (shared with the CZ?)

• Accuracy
• Magwell
• Weight

The other stuff seems to be no better / worse than any other production gun

• If it points wrong, then I'll learn how to hold it right
• If I need more grippiness, then add more
• All the common Production gun's magazines drop free
• Adjustable sights can be put on any of them

However what do you mean by it "drops the slide on slide lock reloads"? You mean it does this automatically when you insert the magazine? Is it designed that way or is it just sensitive like many of the MP's that auto-forward (don't know if that's the correct term)?