Limited 10

[JFD]

I shoot L-10 almost exclusively. I could care less if you shoot against me with a widebody Limited gun.

If a change to "SS Only" just HAS to be, then don't screw it up further by forcing me to use the same gear/placement as Production. Saddle us with 8 round mags when the rules allow 9 rounds "arrays" and the division will be dead very quickly.

The lure of L-10 for me is that I can go racing with my single stack without dropping $2000+ on a gun and mags, while being very competitive. The equipment rules allow a lot of freedom, and that is what I like.

Single stacks are already allowed in L-10. Non-race holsters are already allowed in L-10. Production holster/mag pouch placement is already allowed in L-10. What the heck do we need to screw over the racers for??? I'm going to be plenty pissed if my 20 Power 10 mags and Ghost holster are no longer useable. I don't even want to think what I'd have to remove from the gun to fit the new rules.

Around here I haven't seen any sign that IDPAers are flocking to our Production division. The difference between the two sports isn't all about equipment, it's the difficulty level.

I still haven't found an actual L-10 shooter who desires any changes in the division. I'm thinking (and could be very wrong) that there are Open and Limited shooters who still believe if USPSA duplicates IDPA equipment rules in a division that IDPAers will run to USPSA in droves. I've already stated that I don't believe this is going to happen because these are 2 different sports. Of course it's easy for people to screw with a division that they don't shoot. Sometimes I think there may be a secret "evil" intent to drive the "racey" L-10 shooters to Limited, as it's one of the "real divisions".

The only reason I don't have a life membership with USPSA is because of the talk of totally screwing up L-10 by making it a CDP Jr. division. If I wanted to shoot IDPA equipment, then I'd damn well join IDPA. If L-10 becomes CDP Jr., then I have well over $500 worth of gear that I won't be able to use. I don't see myself being motivated to spend $2000 gearing up for Limited after the BOD has already cost me $500. I've tried shooting Limited with my L-10 equipment, and it just isn't possible to be competitive on more than a handful of stages.

PLEASE LEAVE L-10 ALONE!

Sorry, but this particular discussion always drives me nuts.

[Vlad]

Oh just leave it alone. There are about 15 guns I could name of the top of my head which shoot major ammo and can not hold more 13 or 14 rounds. These guns are popular models, owned by many people, and for which there are no race upgrades for the most part. IF you make L10 a SS division owners of those guns have no place to shoot unless their guns are usable in production and then they better reload so they can shoot minor.

If people want a SS divison, then make one. If the SS is so superior then why are its proponents afraid of going head to head against other guns? (NOTE I shoot a SS Springfield in L10). Why should so many guns no longer have a home? In my opinion those who are fanatical about their SS guns will proabably shoot anyway and find a niche, while the new gun owner may get pushed away buy not giving him a place where he can compete? Regardless of what the purpose of this new division is, we should make sure that we dont throw out a good thing.

If money is the main issue why you want to replace a division with another as opposed to making a new one, I strongly suggest you look at the numbers from the nationals and take a long hard look at that division with 17 competitors before you screw around with L10.

Vlad

[Caspian_45]

Hey Gary. Good question. Thanks for asking.

My take on L-10 has changed slightly over the last year. Yes I would like to see L-10 be SS only. But.........I think that to disallow double stack guns will do nothing to help the division. I do think that L-10 should be SINGLE ACTION ONLY. We have production division for those that wish to shoot Glocks, XD's, S&W's, beretta's, etc. I do think that we should apply in L-10 the same holster and equipment rules for production.

Now before anyone send me hate mail. I shoot L-8 in L-10 division to get ready for the SSC. I am fortunate to live in a state that doesn't have a 10 rd ban...yet. I do have the STANDARD capacity mags for my STI guns, so I play in Limited where I should with standard cap mags.

I would shoot L-10 more if major 9 were legal in L-10. Just kidding..............not.

Tony Hawkins

[dirtypool40]

The lure of L-10 for me is that I can go racing with my single stack without dropping $2000+ on a gun and mags, while being very competitive. The equipment rules allow a lot of freedom, and that is what I like.

if you change one word in that paragraph from "L10" to "Single Stack" you make my argument exactly.

I respect that you have a high dollar set up and have CHOSEN a single stack to do it with. But I honestly believe you are one of a very small percentage who still sets up a race rig on a skiny gun.

[Mistral404]

I started in this sport shooting L10. My L10 is a STI Trojan in .45. I like single stacks and the .45 caliber.

After a couple of years I went with S_I in .40. I now use the wide-body in L10. It is more competitive for me.

I would recommend a single stack division. I believe a single stack division would also help in match sponsorship and make newer shooters feel more competitive not having to compete with L10 S_Is.

Make this organization more INCLUSIVE!

There is a commerical market for single stacks, lets make it easy for those folks to compete.

Bring on the Single Stack Division!

[raz-0]

I think part of the coolness factor of L-10 is being able to play with half the cool gear without having to snag yourself a $2500 gun to find out if a race holster is worth the toruble.

Personally, I think the biggest disincentive you can make to potential members is to tell them they have to buy a new gun to compete. L-10 gives a home to folks with legal limitations to consider as well as walk-ons with single stack 1911 guns or other single actions. As it stands right now, there are very few centerfire guns you can't show up with and participate with if you add a minimum of supporitng gear. Anything that would send a segment of people who can shoot now packing would be bad for participation.

I can understand people complaining about sandbaging and such, but to all those people who have a single stack, but don't shoot it in limited 10, why not? There's nothing stopping you. If you like your widebody better, my guess is you'd just wind up not shooting L-10 at all, and shoot the gun you like in the division you can shoot it in.

I'm still not seeing how chaning L-10 would actually generate some magic pot of gold or something from kimber, springfield, etc. They have a class where a lot of single stacks get used bya lot of people. They don't care about it. They ahve the capability to produce widebody gear like para. They don't do that either. Where does the magic isntant attraction come from kicking the widebodies out? STI doesn't amke a single stack? para doesn't? It's not like you would be creating a GSSF match for them.

[Vlad]

So let me understand .. You think that it would more inclusive because it is easier for 1911's single stacks to compete while excluding USPs, CZs, Glocks, S&Ws, SIGs, High Powers,etc, etc from the game completly? I could buy a Glock 22 and shoot it in 3 Divisions without changes. right now. I can buy a SS and shoot it in 2. By making a SS only division at the expense of L10 you REDUCE options not expand them. If you want to ADD a new SS division, I think it is a bit protectionist for the old workhorse, but I don't much care and I may even shoot in it, but dont exclude so many other guns (and potential shooters) just to make IDPA exiles happy.

Vlad

[Jake Di Vita]

The thing is, you aren't making those people with fat guns shooting in L10 just walk away. If they already have the gear, gun, and mags, there is no reason to not shoot in Limited then.

Here is my way of thinking.

Thus far, from what I can see (and I may be wrong) L10 is the smallest and least competitive division outside of revolver.

As it stands right now. Take 2 shooters with the same level of ability. Put a singlestack and a fat gun in their hands. All things being equal, the fat gun will win. That's just how it is. People wanting to be competitive on the national level in L10 in 95% of the cases, have to put down the extra $2500 for a fat gun.

Bottom line:

If L10 was made singlestack only, the current L10 shooters with fat guns still have a place to go which they need nothing new for. Singlestacks make the division a whole lot more friendly to newer shooters or people that have a very limited budget. I don't really think it matters whether you use Production gear or Race gear.

[Matthew_Mink]

My thoughts on the matter:

Change L10's name to Single Stack. Guns must be 1911's or clones. 8+1 max capacity with normal length mags. Gear behind centerline, just like Production. That would be a true, back to basics, back to the roots, fun division. 1911 single stacks are still alive and well, look at how many people are making the things.

L10 was a good concept initially, but it is time to change it, IMO. It never made sense to me that a GM in Limited could take 10 rds out of his magazine, and all the sudden compete as a M in L10.

[BSeevers]

I don't like the idea of changing because I see most changes in the past upset and they left. I also care less that a few whiners and jerks quit. That said, change can turn any organization around if it needs it.

I know L10(should) have been a SS only class because when it was created there were a LOT of people still shooting SS. I know it was to help out the Kalifornia's somewhat, but why didn't we have Open 10 if 10 rd limits law's were the problem?

Its just not that way now. The Glock is by far the starter/entry/first gun that you see a brand new shooter shooting in Production or L10. If we had a SS, single action, only class I would agree that 8 + 1 would be more fun and for a lack of a better word, pure. .40 Glocks can still play in Production and Limited. SS cannot.

Would it draw people in from IDPA. Not really. Human nature is I got to have the Titanium MAX Distance Custom Driver that Arnold Palmer invented and uses to compete. I can't win without that. Or human nature is I will win with what I got and do what it takes to master my craft. There is a lot of both in this.

I think the average "competition" orientated shooter comes to USPSA anyway. If you are a serious competitor you try to shoot against the best and win. The best shooters and most challenges are in USPSA.

Now we could see Kimber or S&W sponsering shooters in L10 and for that reason I say L8 SS single action only. This would bring in new shooters and change for the better.

The bad thing is we will go back to a lot more guns going triples with homemade trigger enhancements. Hey man I been there.

[dirtypool40]

Mink or like I was be a 84.7% shooter in LIM but be able to enter a major match as a "B" in L10.

Vlad; No I am not saying they can't play, they are just in Limited, like before the ban. Some one, maybe you, mentioned that there are not many race improvements for a lot of these guns, mag extensions and the like. There were before the ban, I have ads for +2 etc base pads for Sigs and Smiths back from 1992.

Yes, your box stock CZ may not be the ultimate Open platform, but it is legal and could be pretty competitive in Limited or production, depending of course on caliber and configuration.

Make the guns between the divisions different. You cut back on "ducking" and you INCLUDE more shooters who already own them.

Bill, I know several folks who have homemade themselves into selectors for high caps, so I don't see that as any different.

[SteveZ]

Prior to Limited 10, I shot Limited using my same L10 gun.

It was my understanding that L10 was created in response to the AWB and not as an endorsement of single stack guns per se (however it turns out that single stacks have come to dominate the division. Dominate in the sense that they're the most common gun used...not necessary that they always win). While the AWB has sunsetted on a national level, there are still many states that still impose their own laws regarding magazine capacity. CA, MA, NJ and HI come to mind! I think what we need now most of all in the USPSA is rule stability and not a moving target.

While many would probably like L10 to become either L8 or single stacks only, I'm in favor of leaving the rules (gun and equipment) the way they are. The beauty of L10 is that Limited competitors can cross over and play in either sandbox. While I don't and won't ever shoot a widebody gun in Limited (I have no interest in them) I see no reason to restrict L10 to single stacks only.

L10 is the ONLY division I shoot....and I as crazy as it sounds, I have a heavily customized Springfield made just for shooting L10. I won't want to loose the investment in equipment (holster/mag holders/mags) just so a group of people (those who keep calling for "single stack" division) can feel good. If those people keep loosing to the S_I guns.....they're not loosing because they're shooting single stacks! In my neck of the woods there are both single stack and S_I widebodies competing in L10 and the single stack hang just fine with the widebodies.

As far as the "big 3" sponsorship is concerned; Springfield has shown a little interest, Kimber has NO interest and Colt doesn't have the money.

Leave L10 alone......PLEASE!!!!!!

[dirtypool40]

it turns out that single stacks have come to dominate the division.  Dominate in the sense that they're the most common gun used...not necessary that they always win

sorry, I can't agree, with that. By number they are only about 30% where shoot, and by place they generally fall in the bottom half. Yes, it is the indian not the arrow, but the arrow helps and most will select being the bigger fish in the smaller pond of you let them.

As to sponsorship, that was my point!!! There is no reason NOW for them to pay us any attention. Their guns CAN'T win so why should they spend money pointing to them in our game. Yes, I know folks who shoot a Colt. No, in general they do not beat the S_I guys.

If you open the door to the thousands of skinny gun owners WHO DON'T CURRENTLY SHOOT USPSA the sponsors will follow them in.

[MoNsTeR]

At the local level, L10 is OVERRUN with high cap trophy hunters.

But I honestly believe you are one of a very small percentage who still sets up a race rig on a skiny gun.

My experience is precisely opposite yours. At the local level, very few serious shooters shoot L10 at all, but most have single stacks. It's at the major matches that you find the "trophy hunters," but still very few. I also see quite a few skinny guns in race rigs.

Myself, I shoot a fat gun in L10, because I enjoy the combination of:

* the mental challenge of breaking a stage into 10rd chunks

* the physical challenge of frequent reloads

* doing the above with race gear

I've shot a little bit of Limited, and I don't much like it. If L10 is replaced by SS, I'll... well I don't know what I'll do. I have a >$3k investment that's suited to Limited, but I don't enjoy Limited. Production is fun but I miss the race gear. If an SS division had Production gear rules, I wouldn't even think about shooting in it. I guess I'd go whole-hog and start shooting Open...

Run n Gun summed up my feelings. If you don't shoot L10, don't presume to know what's best for it. If you're so convinced that skinny guns and non-race gear are uncompetitive, shoot one for a month, or better yet a season, and prove it. If the BOD is seriously considering mucking about with L10, I challenge them to actually shoot it for a while. I'm very confident that if they do, they'll trash any ideas of screwing with it because it doesn't need screwing with!

The only change that L10 needs is for Limited and L10 classifications to be locked together (ie: if you're A in Lim you're automatically A in L10, rather than . They should never have been different divisions for classification purposes, as most classifiers don't reward capacity anyway.

Creating a single stack division will not increase sponsorship. Kimber and Colt don't give two s***s about USPSA one way or the other. They don't even sponsor IDPA, do they? I certainly don't see an "IDPA special" model in their lineups, nor even in Springfield's, who does do some sponsorship. CDP allows fewer mods than even L10; it would be SO EASY for them to sell a perfectly optimized gun, yet they don't. Think about that before you predict a huge bounty of sponsorship for a single stack division in USPSA.

(Please forgive the lack of organization in this post. When people talk of gutting my favorite division I get so pissed off it's hard to think straight.)

[BSeevers]

Bill, I know several folks who have homemade themselves into selectors for high caps, so I don't see that as any different.

I am with you that's why I said 'more"

Usually skills, smarts, funds and experience have fewer "self made class III" projects by the time a person gets a S_I. A lot more people have an old .45 and time on their hands to get "better through trigger enhancements" instead of practicing.

I saw a gun double every month 10 years ago. Now its a pretty rare occurance.

[dirtypool40]

I am happy to see the multitude of usernames under this thread, we are reading this and taking it seriously.

I respect what Monster wrote, but we agree to disagree. I shoot Limited, actually Standard at the moment for precisely the opposite reasons:

I like the creativity, options and temptation of agressiveness afforded me by a high cap.

I had a new guy coming in with a G35 all set up. He told me he wanted to play in L10 for a while. Suspicious I asked why. He responded "Less talent to fight with and I get to practice reloads". My advice was to come to the bigger pond, take his lumps and see why we were cutting up courses the way we were. Practice reloads at home, shoot courses aggressively and creatively at the match.

As to Sponsorship, I have to agree that the glory days of lush prize tables may be years behind us, but I know from trying to put one together how many single stack manufacturers there are. I put together a small match in FL for skinny guns and we gave away 14 (FOURTEEN!!!) guns. With only 140 shooters in the drawing, you had a pretty good chance of winning something neat that day.

We can argue about it all day, but I think if they see money being spent on their products to compete, we can see a resurgence. It won't happen overnight, but it could happen. It will not happen when there guns are only seen as "beginner's" guns.

Hell, we might even be able to resurrect Colt. Wouldn't that be something.

[JFD]

dirtypool40

If the only change to L-10 was single stack guns only, then I'd have no problem with it. Of course why would I when it wouldn't affect me

Again, I don't care if widebody guns are allowed now. At the risk of being flamed to ashes for saying it, someof those who shoot downloaded Limited guns in L-10 are simply not able to handle the competition in Limited and the fact they have a giant magwell is not going to make them an instant winner in L-10, as most of us dedicated L-10 shooters know a thing or two about quick reloading. My best overall stage finishes involve mandatory reloads, the more the better. That their guns are more controllable just means I have to practice more to make up for it.

I tried shooting Limited with my L-10 gear last month. The second stage required 16 rounds from the same position and killed any hope of a decent finish. I'll probably shoot 3 more matches in Limited just to get classified in that division. Moving to Limited with my current rig is not an option.

I'm positive that L-10 is not going to be left well enough alone or the change only restricting the division to SS guns. I'm also convinced that L-10 will only be hurt by the addition of Production type equipment rules.

Locally L-10 is more popular than Production, but I believe this varies across the country. In any case, checking out the Production shooters participating at the Nats compared to L-10 shooters shows that Production hasn't drawn hordes of IDPAers, yet it's as close to IDPA equipment as any division we have. Why will a "new and ruined" L-10 be any different?

The problem with both divisions is that Joe Average shooter still thinks that "I need a $2500 racegun to shoot USPSA" and nothing has been done to correct this misunderstanding.

I can't tolerate IDPA, so my L-10 gun will become a safe queen, suitable only for a local outlaw match that I can only barely tolerate on good days(same rules problems as IDPA). This is one of the reasons I've already been planning on gearing up for Limited with a Para (get to keep my Ghost at least). Once I'm classified in Limited I'll probably feel the urge to "help" Prod and L-10 by lobbying for concealment to be required in those divisions

If dirtypool40 is correct that my opinions represent a definite minority of L-10 shooters, and a CDP Jr. division will help USPSA, then I guess I hope I'm really wrong as I would also like to see USPSA grow. I just hope that I'm geared up for Limited when it happens

[Run n Gun]

I respect that you have a high dollar set up and have CHOSEN a single stack to do it with.  But I honestly believe you are one of a very small percentage who still sets up a race rig on a skiny gun.

WOW, where do you live? Here in Oregon the situation is VERY different. We had a match on Saturday, New Years Day and the weather was cold and windy and rainy, only nine people showed up. But of those nine people (myself included) SIX of us were equipped almost EXACTLY as JFD describes! L-10 is SERIOUS business around here. Many, many people like myself, shoot L-10 exclusively.

You know it’s a Damn shame, just YESTERDAY I was saying that I’ve FINALLY, after all of this time, I’ve got my gun and gear just where I want them. Everything has been bought, polished, tweaked and fitted, a quick trip to Virgil for hard chroming and I’m DONE. DONE!! And now this CRAP… again! The sense of betrayal is almost palpable.

If you guys want to go shoot IDPA or SSC then go do it, no one’s stopping you. But now you’re talking, yet again, about stopping ME from shooting MY sport. One of the biggest complaints I hear about IDPA is that they won’t settle on rules, don’t let that happen in the USPSA too.

If you make it Single Stack only division, with an 8 round limit (in a time of 9 round arrays), anti-freestyle holster and mag pouch limitations, then, I believe, people will leave it in DROVES! All that will be left is another division with low participation like Revolver and the gray beards all standing around looking at each other saying “what the Hell happened?”

When this topic came up over a year ago, 6-8 of us SERIOUS L-10 guys sat around for a long time talking about what we would do if this came to pass. A couple said they would quit, just flat quit and go play some other game. Most of us agreed that we would petition Sedro and see if we could have our L-10 classifiers re-classed as Limited and move to that division, only one, ONE, said they’d give it a try! He didn’t hold out much hope, but he would try it. Like JFD, these discussions drive me CRAZY!

Any idea what the timeline of these rule changes would be? Assuming of course, that cooler heads don’t prevail and everyone realizes that there ISN’T ANYTHING WRONG with L-10 just the way it is.

Ed

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Been following this thread and since I have voiced my opinion in the past to Mike voight and others at HQ in email, I wasn't going to post.....But I gotta since I am somewhat disapointed with a lot of these replies. I think that L10 is a great division as it is and should just be left alone. It is absolutely neccessary in states like mine, CA, that have >10 round bans. It very well may, along with production, be THE future of USPSA in these states. I'm hearing way too much whining and attitude along the lines of "I Got Mine, So Why Should We Care About People in THOSE States With a Ban". Very sad attitudes indeed! Leave it as it is! When I started shooting USPSA, I shot L10 only for more than a year and never felt at a disadvantage against those with high cap guns. Stop your whining already.

[Vlad]

I still don't get why we can't make a SS 1911 Division and leave L10 the way it is. There are more people shooting L10 with non-1911 guns that there people shooting ALL revolvers. Why is it that we have to muck with that as opposed to making something new to fill a perceived void?

Vlad

[short_round]

Does the Single Stack have to be a completely different division or can it be a category? That way there is no change to L-10 as it currently exists but gives an opportunity for recognition for those choosing to shoot heavy in L-10.

You wouldn't have to setup another divison to administrate since everyone would still be classified under L-10. At the matches though, you could compare your scores to everyone else with a "Heavy Metal" check box and even make an award for the highest scoring one like we already do for high senior, junior, or lady.

just a thought ....

[JFD]

Notice the difference in opinion between those of us who actually shoot L-10 on a dedicated basis versus those who dabble in L-10 or don't shoot it at all. Same thing happens when it's suggested we can't compete against downloaded STIs.

Here's the breakdown of shooters at our local match January 1:

Open = 7

Limited = 14

Limited 10 = 9

Production = 6

Revolver = 1

We would have had ten L-10 shooters but a large dose of wifely influence resulted in me visiting the inlaws. A sad weekend indeed.

I do notice a problem division that is always barely represented, but it's NOT L-10.

[Clyde]

L-10 as is. I believe it to be Single Stack Friendly.

And better yet a lot of Fun.

[Merlin Orr]

Notice the difference in opinion between those of us who actually shoot L-10 on a dedicated basis versus those who dabble in L-10 or don't shoot it at all.

Just a question.

I have noticed a number of posts which say this or something similar.. Just how is this fact being determined?

Does the fact that someone shoots in another class as well as L 10 make their opinion invalid? Its all good.

[SmittyFL]

There is this country song: politics, religion, and her; refering to things you never talk about. They should throw L-10 division in with that. I guess the fact it's such a hot button topic means folks care about the sport, let's remember that while discussing this. I'll throw my 2 sense in.

I think L-10 would get more shooters if it were SS only. I'd like to follow production holster rules but could live with it either way. I know I would shoot it often, I don't see the point of not loading my limited mags full just to shoot in a different division. If it were SS only, I'd dust off the ol' Kimber.