Sandbagger123 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 At the last area match there was no recognition given for the revolver guys. the reason that is speculated was that there were no enough entries in revolver. I thought this was kinda harsh seeing that these guys ponied up the money to shoot it. So is this normal for most major matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) Requirements and recommendations are in Appendix A2 of the rulebook. Edited June 4, 2014 by jester121 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Requirements and recommendations are in Appendix A2 of the rulebook. you are correct. I thought it was 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 So is this normal for most major matches? From what I have seen yes. If there are not enough entries to recognize a division then there should be no awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I would have loved to give an award for Revolver. Appendix A2 prohibits recognizing a Division with less than 10 entries at a level II or higher match. We've gone through this every year for the last several. It's frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) I would have loved to give an award for Revolver. Appendix A2 prohibits recognizing a Division with less than 10 entries at a level II or higher match. We've gone through this every year for the last several. It's frustrating. yeah but it strange they pass them all out to high lady, senior etc. i did not shoot revolver, but those paying that did paid $150, won, and did not even go home with a plaque. the one guy i spoke to, even though he did not win, thought that Poggie got stiffed. BTW congrats in your placing in production Edited June 5, 2014 by Sandbagger123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) I would have loved to give an award for Revolver. Appendix A2 prohibits recognizing a Division with less than 10 entries at a level II or higher match. We've gone through this every year for the last several. It's frustrating. yeah but it strange they pass them all out to high lady, senior etc. i did not shoot revolver, but those paying that did paid $150, won, and did not even go home with a plaque. BTW congrats in your placing in production All I can say is, read the rules. Categories are different than divisions. BTW Chuck, it's only 5, not 10 but it's only a recommendation so I guess you could award revo? USPSA Recognition Prior to the commencement of a match, the organizers must specify which Division(s) will be recognized. Unless otherwise specified, USPSA sanctioned matches will recognize Divisions and Categories based on the number of registered competitors who actually compete in the match, based on the following criteria: 1. Divisions Level I and Level II A minimum of 5 competitors per Division (recommended) Level III / Nationals A minimum of 10 competitors per Division (mandatory) 2. Categories Division status must be achieved before Categories are recognized. All level matches A minimum of 5 competitors per Division Category (see approved list below) Edited June 5, 2014 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I would have loved to give an award for Revolver. Appendix A2 prohibits recognizing a Division with less than 10 entries at a level II or higher match. We've gone through this every year for the last several. It's frustrating. yeah but it strange they pass them all out to high lady, senior etc. i did not shoot revolver, but those paying that did paid $150, won, and did not even go home with a plaque. BTW congrats in your placing in production All I can say is, read the rules. Categories are different than divisions. BTW Chuck, it's only 5, not 10 but it's only a recommendation so I guess you could award revo? USPSA Recognition Prior to the commencement of a match, the organizers must specify which Division(s) will be recognized. Unless otherwise specified, USPSA sanctioned matches will recognize Divisions and Categories based on the number of registered competitors who actually compete in the match, based on the following criteria: 1. Divisions Level I and Level II A minimum of 5 competitors per Division (recommended) Level III / Nationals A minimum of 10 competitors per Division (mandatory) 2. Categories Division status must be achieved before Categories are recognized. All level matches A minimum of 5 competitors per Division Category (see approved list below) No he couldn't award for less than 10 competitors -- he was running an area match. From Appendix A1: Level III — Annual championship matches conducted by USPSA Areas (1 - 8). and from A2: Level III / Nationals A minimum of 10 competitors per Division (mandatory) Division and Class winners at a Level III require ten in division or class to recognize. Category awards only require 5...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 My bad. I was just replying to his post where he said 10 were required for II and above and assumed level II was in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 My bad, thought I hit the I three times. Yes 5 level II. He was referring to an Area match though which is required Level III. The recognition rules are pretty specific. If the numbers aren't there no award. It sucks for the people who shot but didn't have enough participation, but it preserves the recognition for those who did. In this particular case it was a battle in Revo. But say one of the two GMs didn't show or got DQd. Should the winner who beat a handful of C/D class shooters (and I'm guessing, not trying to slight the other Revo shooters there) receive the same Area Champion recognition the Travis Tomasie did for winning Limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 My bad, thought I hit the I three times. Yes 5 level II. He was referring to an Area match though which is required Level III. The recognition rules are pretty specific. If the numbers aren't there no award. It sucks for the people who shot but didn't have enough participation, but it preserves the recognition for those who did. In this particular case it was a battle in Revo. But say one of the two GMs didn't show or got DQd. Should the winner who beat a handful of C/D class shooters (and I'm guessing, not trying to slight the other Revo shooters there) receive the same Area Champion recognition the Travis Tomasie did for winning Limited? No for no show, Yes for DQ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I agree. If there are 10 entries that show and shoot, somebody should be top dog. But if only one shows up then he is out of luck. LOL that would be kind of like our local steel matches. Winner of each division wins $5, even if he is the only entry in that division! Who did he beat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) Pretty cheap no more than a plaque costs. They could give the top Revolver Division shooter a plaque. They were happy to take the revolver shooters money. Edited June 5, 2014 by Jaxshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Rules is rules. If I can set one part of the rulebook aside for this, the rest of the rulebook is no longer safe from a similar treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Why pay and shoot a match for plaque? It'd be cheaper to just buy a plaque and skip the match. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Should the winner who beat a handful of C/D class shooters (and I'm guessing, not trying to slight the other Revo shooters there) receive the same Area Champion recognition the Travis Tomasie did for winning Limited? Only if you want to grow the smaller divisions. We already give out participation awards. Who deserves more recognition, the high D shooter in limited or the winner in revolver? They do pay the same entry fee. We've already changed the rules to allow 8 minor and it appears to be working at local matches around here. We're not getting ten shooters at all the matches, but we did at the RM 300. Perhaps we should allow recognition of divisions that see 5 shooters at area matches. It's a long way to travel to find out that only 8 other shooters could get the time off work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 That is not a level 3 match. The rule book does not say required on level 2 it says recommended. So no rules are being set aside.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 That is not a level 3 match. The rule book does not say required on level 2 it says recommended. So no rules are being set aside.. I'm aware the RM 300 is run as a level 1 match. I'm saying that I feel folks would be more likely to drive to out of state matches if they're confident their performance will be recognized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Pretty cheap no more than a plaque costs. They could give the top Revolver Division shooter a plaque. They were happy to take the revolver shooters money. It's not about the money for the plaque. It's about having that plaque mean something. If we award divisions, classes and categories that don't meet the requirements for the rulebook, how low should we go? 5,3,1? I've heard arguments for all the above. I've heard that high junior should be recognized even if he is the only one. I just think it cheapens it. One of the kids I shoot with has a couple World Champion titles. But when he won them he was 14 or 15 shooting against a couple 9 year olds. The titles mean very little to him. And I don't think it's fair to the person who did beat 9, or 90 other people to stand with someone who beat no one, but was the only person registered, as winner of whatever match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 So in another twist on confusing wording in the rulebook.... Read the Level 3 text again and ponder, is it saying "mandatory" as in: - It is mandatory that you have at least 10 competitors before you can recognize the division, or - If you have at least 10 competitors in the division, it is mandatory that you recognize it. Everyone in the thread seems to be assuming it is the first one, but the actual text is ambiguous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 So in another twist on confusing wording in the rulebook.... Read the Level 3 text again and ponder, is it saying "mandatory" as in: - It is mandatory that you have at least 10 competitors before you can recognize the division, or - If you have at least 10 competitors in the division, it is mandatory that you recognize it. Everyone in the thread seems to be assuming it is the first one, but the actual text is ambiguous. +1. the first interpretation actually seems a little bizarre to me. who ever heard of prohibiting recognizing a division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It's obvious to me that the original intention was to ensure recognition for divisions with at least 10 competitors. The other interpretation makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 So in another twist on confusing wording in the rulebook.... Read the Level 3 text again and ponder, is it saying "mandatory" as in: - It is mandatory that you have at least 10 competitors before you can recognize the division, or - If you have at least 10 competitors in the division, it is mandatory that you recognize it. Everyone in the thread seems to be assuming it is the first one, but the actual text is ambiguous. It might be best to consider the entire rule, as it makes it perfectly plain that you need a minimum 10 in a division before you can award anything in that division in a Lvl3 or Nationals match. Appendix A2 USPSA Recognition Prior to the commencement of a match, the organizers must specify which Division(s) will be recognized. Unless otherwise specified, USPSA sanctioned matches will recognize Divisions and Categories based on the number of registered competitors who actually compete in the match, based on the following criteria: 1. Divisions Level I and Level II A minimum of 5 competitors per Division (recommended) Level III / Nationals A minimum of 10 competitors per Division (mandatory) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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