Single stack make ready question

[Steffes]

If loading using a barney mag and additional topped off mag during make ready, can you retrieve these from a front pant pocket or only from a rear pocket? This assumes you want full mags in all pouches after make ready. No mag retrieval from pockets after the beep. Couldn't find it in a search. Thanks!

[cbrconst]

See 5.2.4, Appendix D-12, and Appendix E3

At "Make Ready", you can retrieve a magazine from a front pocket. Subject to Written Stage Briefing, you can have a magazine in your front pocket during the course of fire and not be penalized as long as you do not retrieve that magazine.

[Jaxshooter]

If you think you might use it keep it in your back pocket.

[Steffes]

Thanks gentlemen - this is the practice I have been using and I have received mixed feedback on it in the past. Thinking of signing up for my first major and don't want to be reinforcing poor habits.

[frag316]

How many mags are you running on your belt? I generally keep five mags for the stage in DAA pouches, then use a Blade-Tech double to hold my barney and start mag. I orient them the other way and keep them in the small of my back to separate them from the other mags on my belt.

[Steffes]

Six on the belt, two in front pocket. Never go to the two in the pocket

[Steffes]

I have 6 on the belt at the beep...I stuff the barney mag in my front pocket during make ready.

[Skydiver]

And what do you do on a multi-string COF? Do you also leave the mag in the front pocket alone until the final "If clear, hammer down, and holster"?

[bofe954]

Just use mag 6 as your barney. Run the stage with 7 rounds in your 6th mag. You shouldn't hit it anyway.

[Parallax3D]

And what do you do on a multi-string COF? Do you also leave the mag in the front pocket alone until the final "If clear, hammer down, and holster"?

The COF starts with "make ready", and ends with "range is clear."

If you retrieve a mag from your front pocket at any time between those two commands, then welcome to Open Division!

[Steffes]

If you grab a mag out of your front pocket and put it in a pouch on your belt? Open?

[Poppa Bear]

If you grab a mag out of your front pocket and put it in a pouch on your belt? Open?

If done between strings you are ok. If done during the string, Open.

[thermobollocks]

And what do you do on a multi-string COF? Do you also leave the mag in the front pocket alone until the final "If clear, hammer down, and holster"?

The COF starts with "make ready", and ends with "range is clear."

If you retrieve a mag from your front pocket at any time between those two commands, then welcome to Open Division!

Not anymore. If I remember correctly this came up during SS nationals 2012/2013.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=55

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed providing they are not removed from that apparel pocket(s) until the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.

The start signal to "if clear, hammer down, and holster" seems to be the demarcation point. So, if you were at a major, you should expect to carry enough mags on your belt for multi-string type stages. If I were running you at a club match and you topped off between strings out of your front pocket, honestly, I wouldn't care.

What I generally do is load off my barney mag from my first pouch, throw it on the ground, load my first full mag from my second pouch, holster, then fish 2 full mags out of my back pocket and stick them on my belt.

Edited May 28, 2014 by thermobollocks

[Parallax3D]

And what do you do on a multi-string COF? Do you also leave the mag in the front pocket alone until the final "If clear, hammer down, and holster"?

The COF starts with "make ready", and ends with "range is clear."

If you retrieve a mag from your front pocket at any time between those two commands, then welcome to Open Division!

Not anymore. If I remember correctly this came up during SS nationals 2012/2013.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=55

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed providing they are not removed from that apparel pocket(s) until the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.

The start signal to "if clear, hammer down, and holster" seems to be the demarcation point. So, if you were at a major, you should expect to carry enough mags on your belt for multi-string type stages. If I were running you at a club match and you topped off between strings out of your front pocket, honestly, I wouldn't care.

What I generally do is load off my barney mag from my first pouch, throw it on the ground, load my first full mag from my second pouch, holster, then fish 2 full mags out of my back pocket and stick them on my belt.

Did you not read what I said? If you touch the mag in a front pocket after the start, then you are in Open. We know you're allowed to load at the "make ready" from the front pocket. The question was, what about multiple string courses? If there are muiltiple strings, then you CAN'T TOUCH the mag in the front pocket until after the COF has ended, (and COF ends at "range is clear", not "if clear, hammer down and holser." <--- That is just an inconsistency in the rulebook.)

[Sarge]

agreed that you can't go to a mag in the front pocket between strings. I also agree it does not hurt anything but that is the way the rules are written and that is how I would enforce them.

[Poppa Bear]

A multi string stages ends at if clear hammer down or prepare for your next string. So refilling your belt with mags carried in an apparel pocket is permissible. My reasoning for that is that each string has its own start signal which is the official start of a COF. You cannot start a new string unless the prior one has ended, hence the COF has ended for that string.

[thermobollocks]

And what do you do on a multi-string COF? Do you also leave the mag in the front pocket alone until the final "If clear, hammer down, and holster"?

The COF starts with "make ready", and ends with "range is clear."

If you retrieve a mag from your front pocket at any time between those two commands, then welcome to Open Division!

I did read what you wrote, dude. And this is wrong. Between the START SIGNAL and "unload and show clear" is where the front pocket comes into play.

[frag316]

I've never had an issue running a multi-string stage with just the mags on my belt.

[Nik Habicht]

And what do you do on a multi-string COF? Do you also leave the mag in the front pocket alone until the final "If clear, hammer down, and holster"?

The COF starts with "make ready", and ends with "range is clear."

If you retrieve a mag from your front pocket at any time between those two commands, then welcome to Open Division!

Not anymore. If I remember correctly this came up during SS nationals 2012/2013.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=55

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed providing they are not removed from that apparel pocket(s) until the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.

The start signal to "if clear, hammer down, and holster" seems to be the demarcation point. So, if you were at a major, you should expect to carry enough mags on your belt for multi-string type stages. If I were running you at a club match and you topped off between strings out of your front pocket, honestly, I wouldn't care.

What I generally do is load off my barney mag from my first pouch, throw it on the ground, load my first full mag from my second pouch, holster, then fish 2 full mags out of my back pocket and stick them on my belt.

Did you not read what I said? If you touch the mag in a front pocket after the start, then you are in Open. We know you're allowed to load at the "make ready" from the front pocket. The question was, what about multiple string courses? If there are muiltiple strings, then you CAN'T TOUCH the mag in the front pocket until after the COF has ended, (and COF ends at "range is clear", not "if clear, hammer down and holser." <--- That is just an inconsistency in the rulebook.)

It's actually not an inconsistency. Some folks need an empty mag in order to be able to comply with "Hammer Down." Hence, they have the ability to retrieve an empty mag from their front pocket at that point, in order to deactivate the mag safety on their gun, so they can drop the hammer using the trigger.....

[pjb45]

Load 9 rounds in the first mag. I have Tripp mags which allow for 9 rounds. This is now legal.

The rule changed after Matt Burkett was moved into Open because his mag had too many rounds in it at the Load and Make Ready command.

To avoid the front pocket mess why not just put the mag into your back pocket?

[Skydiver]

A multi string stages ends at if clear hammer down or prepare for your next string. So refilling your belt with mags carried in an apparel pocket is permissible. My reasoning for that is that each string has its own start signal which is the official start of a COF. You cannot start a new string unless the prior one has ended, hence the COF has ended for that string.

Following that logic, if I drop my gun between strings, then it's not a DQ as long as I don't pick it up myself.

[acpie360]

Rule 5.2.4, in the Feb 2014 Revision, has this sentence in the second paragraph:

...(e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)....

Why wouldn't a Production or Single Stack shooter be allowed to retrieve a magazine from a front pocket for the purpose of topping off his gun on a stage that requires multiple strings? After all, what advantage can a shooter possibly gain for do so?

Edited May 29, 2014 by acpie360

[Skydiver]

If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"...

[Nik Habicht]

If only that sentence said "end of a string" instead of "end of a COF"...

It doesn't need to. It includes to "facilitate loading before the start signal." Kind of hard to have a second string without a start signal......

RO gives the "Load for your next string" command, and I'm ok with someone dragging a mag out of the front pocket to accomplish that. If the relaod from the front pocket while the clock's running, that's a different story......

[kcobean]

Two thoughts here...

First, keeping a mag in your front pocket could, depending on how deep your pockets are, inhibit movement on a stage that requires crouching, kneeling, etc. Just a thought.

Second, on a multi-string CoF:

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the

apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”.

(e.g.–a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

The standby command is given once per STRING, but the ICHDAH is only given once per STAGE. It would seem to me then that reaching into a front pocket prior to the issuance of the standby command on string 2+ would be allowed under the directive of 8.3.6.1 "Reload if required and holster".

8.3.6.1 -When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may issue other interim commands on completion of the first string, in order to prepare the competitor for the second and subsequent strings. (e.g. “Reload if required and holster”). This option may also be applied when two or more courses of fire share a common shooting bay or area.