Steffes

A larger "not ipsc standard legal" magwell with delrin / ultra high molecular weight plastic insert would get my money in a heartbeat!

Here is a progress picture of my limited gun. I think the next step will be an aftermarket sear and hammer to shorten overtravel and reset.

Oh, the chamber in a limited is cut to accept anything up to about 1.275" oal. Headspace set up for 40 case. Loading long is not a problem.

It seems there are a few things you might be missing. Loading long is not required. If you don't want a heavy bullet, fast powder super load, you can load to 1.135 with a range of bullets and powders. This road is the simplest and only requires you to buy k40 mags and henning basepads and grams guts. If you want to load long you have 2 options. K10 mags or old style mags. K10 mags bulge and you will need to modify your gun to accept them loaded to 20 rds. Old style mags won't fit in a new manufacture gun and you will need to spend hours with files and sandpaper trying to make them fit. Old style mags hold 22 rds but are VERY prone to nosediving and you will need to follow some very specific instructions to load for them. Old style mags also don't work with the basepads out there because they are a different profile. They will need to be modified to work with old style mag tubes. Also the old style tubes don't fit the EGW length gauge and need to be filed at the rear of the feedlips to make them legal. I can guide you through it once you decide what direction you want to go.

I have made them work. It takes quite a bit of time and material removal inside the magwell to fit the old style mags. If you want to load long, fixing the gun to accept k10 mags loaded to 20 is easier than fixing the gun to take the old mags. Old mags will hold 21 reloadable and 22 +1 start though, if that interests you.

I wrote a long diatribe on getting these guns to run 40 long in limited. It is possible to run k10 mags at 20 reloadable but it will take a lot of work and attention to detail. With old style 10mm mags you can run 21 reloadable or 22 +1 start, but the are more difficult to keep running than k10. If you can do it, load short and use K40.

I have heard that the k40 mags function just fine on standard processed brass, nothing special required. I also think the K10 mags can work with some gun mods to accept bulged mag tubes stuffed to 20 rds. That is the avenue I am now pursuing.

I think it would run fine with no additional work on the updated magazines. I chose, through component selection, to load long which limited my options significantly. I have since attempted to get the K10 mags to fit in the gun again and I got it to work but had to modify the gun to accept the bulged mags.

What is the base diameter after casepro? If > 0.416 I am not interested.

My measurements indicate the Dillon die I have measures 0.4155 ID and the Lee U-Die measures more like 0.413.

I broke the Redding die trying to do just that. The ring split in two after about 50 rounds. Thats why I pass through the Lee FCD first to bring down the effort to get it through a smaller die. I like your plan though - maybe I will skip the Lee and just use the Dillon (no mods required) which produces 0.416" dia brass. Thoughts? Don't really want to break another die, although the Dillon seems to have double the carbide in the sizing ring.

You accept 1 / 100 rounds failing in a match?

Casepro = $800+ Lee die - $20 Dillon die - $30 Elbow grease - $0 I will stick with the $50 investment and achieve the brass size needed for reliable function in my blaster Besides, casepro is only going to size down to 0.423 or so (saami spec).

I chickened out in the match this weekend and only loaded 20 in the mags. Had an unloaded start stage where mags had to be on a table and the first part of the plan came to an 18 round array. Had a couple make ups and ran the gun dry. Didn't register to rack another round after the reload and wasted a couple seconds on a tap rack. If I had loaded 21, it would have went bang after the reload. Gun has an EGW barrel pin and no slide stop to lock the slide back empty.

To clarify, the process was adopted not due to chambering failures, but to improve round stacking in the old style Tanfo mag tubes. I never did have a problem failing a chamber check with any of the processes I tried.

I voted Lee for the U-Die. EGW die is a Lee U-Die - Identical except for costing double. The Dillon die is slightly looser (less coke bottle effect) and is the only other die I have found of acceptable design.

I've used Dillon, Lee (FCD and U-Die), Redding, and RCBS dies for 40. Long story short: Redding carbide die is garbage. Let me repeat. Garbage. It is undersized and straight walled (0.415 ID all the way through the carbide ring), with an aggressive radius at the bottom and does leave belts at the bottom of sized brass. You are correct in Redding insisting on only sizing half the case. Complete Garbage - stay away. RCBS carbide die is garbage. Let me repeat. Garbage. It is OVERSIZED and straight walled (0.421 ID all the way through). This die does not size cases sufficiently to provide adequate neck tension and it resulted in bullets jumping out of brass in the mag then jamming in the rifling when cycled. Then bullets would simply pull out of the brass when extracting loaded rounds. Even worse than Redding. Lee FCD is the exact same dimension internally as the RCBS die, but it is not a resizing die, simply a push through sizing die (base sizing only, meant to be followed by a true resizing die) or a loaded round resizing die meant to pass the bullet and brass together all the way down to the base. Lee U-Die is TIGHT, but well designed. It is tapered from about 0.419 at the bottom (base of the case) to 0.412 at the top (case mouth). This is the best die you can buy for reloading 40. Use an expanding die or powder through expander to bell the brass prior to seating bullets. Dillon die is second only to the Lee U-Die in design. It is 0.416 at the top and about 0.421 at the bottom. This die will not belt the bottom of most range brass and will provide adequate neck tension. If you had to choose between this and the U-Die, I'd take the U-Die but you may still end up with a belted case or two with the U-Die.

Add more powder! Use a chrono and stop when you reach the desired speed. Watch for pressure signs if you are worried, but you shouldn't be since you're using a completely different OAL. Use 10mm data and reduce slightly for shorter OAL if you like. You're loading somewhere between 40 and 10mm length so the charges will land between the two appropriately. Plated bullets act more like jacketed bullets than lead bullets in my experience. So much so that I just use jacketed data without thinking twice.

Try 3.5 gr working up to 4.0 grains of WST and see where you like it. Load to 1.18 or longer...1.200 if you can. Use the 200 gr bullets for softest recoil. 165's will feel like hot 9mm at that PF, 200's will feel sub minor at that PF.

Background I have been looking to switch to limited division for nearly a year now and finally found the pistol I was looking for. I picked up a Tanfoglio Witness Elite Limited in 40S&W in October and I've been working on reliable function since then. Admittedly I have caused myself undue problems by my choice in bullets and powders limiting me to loading longer than 1.200" as I had stockpiled several thousand 200 grain bullets prior to finding the gun. Prior to switching to limited, I had shot single stack and loaded 45 ACP using fast pistol powders like Bullseye, VV N310 and WST, so those were the powders I had on hand starting the 40S&W project. The first problem I encountered was with the new style magazines for the Witness pistols. The K40 and K10 both have their issues as related to competition use. The K40, 40S&W mag has a spacer in the rear of the mag that limits OAL to 1.145" (a no-go for my component selection) and the K10, 10mm mag has a control rib down both sides of the magazine which I found limits the usable capacity to about 18 rounds when running the Henning 141 mag extensions and Grams guts. Research indicated that the "old style" 10MM magazines were what I would need for my application (40 long, 20 round mag) so I found a guy in Colorado with a stash of both old style mag bodies and Henning mag extensions. I picked up several and got to work. The second problem I encountered was with the old style magazines. The new manufacture gun (manufactured July 2014) was set up to use the new style K40 / K10 magazines. The old style magazines have smaller radius corners on the front edges which cause issues with the mag catch and mag well area of the gun. I spent about two nights sanding, filing and polishing the mag well to accept the old style magazines without binding / sticking in the gun. Once I got the gun cleaned up and the mag catch tuned for the old style magazine tubes, I found out the new Henning mag extensions are machined for the new style mag profile and will not fit on the old style tubes. I broke out the dremel and modified the mag extensions to fit the old style tubes. Now I had 141mm magazines with grams springs and followers that "should" hold 21 rounds of 40long. The third problem I encountered was with feed reliability with the old style mag tubes. The reason there is an old and new style mag tube is that the old style mag tube is very nose-dive prone due to poor control rib and taper design. Henning recommends NEW brass for any reloading endeavor for these guns with the old style magazines to avoid nose-dive problems due to bulged brass. I am hopeful that I have found a solution to this issue - hence the purpose of this post. I'm also hopeful that this information will help others solve feed reliability problems with doublestack 40 guns. I'm also thinking the process I've developed will increase the capacity of a doublestack magazine by one round (or make your previously 19 reloadable / 20 round mag a 20 reloadable mag). Brass Prep Process I've tried 3 different methods for preparing 40S&W brass for reloading on a progressive press. The first method was simply to tumble the brass and start reloading with a standard Redding resizing die in station 1. This was TERRIBLE and for all practical purposes is not feasible. The Redding die causes massive "bands" at the bottom of even slightly bulged 40 brass and simply cannot size brass effectively. This results in rounds that are larger in diameter at the rear of the case than at the case mouth, which exacerbates the nose-dive tendency of a double stack mag. The second method I tried was using a Lee Bulge Buster and a Lee Factory Crimp die to push-though size all the brass prior to putting them through the progressive. This slightly reduced the number of mangled cases, but only about 20% of the cases were useable after this process. I ended up using this method for about a thousand rounds during debug by push through sizing, then resizing with the Redding die in single operations. I would then inspect every case and cull out the ones with bulges remaining at the base. This was extremely tedious and still did not result in perfect function as the bases of the cases were coming out of the Lee die at about 0.422" or approximately equal to the case mouth of a finished round. This was much better in functionality, but not ideal for the amount of work required to conduct the processing and inspection. The method I have settled on requires 3 resizing steps, and 3 resizing dies to accomplish, but results in range pick-up brass that is nearly 100% usable for my picky mag setup. Step 1 is shoving the fired cases through the Lee Factory Crimp Die using the bulge buster and a single stage press. Here is a picture of the setup I am currently using (highly engineered catch bucked atop the press). Here is a picture of a fired case base measurement - they come in anywhere around 0.425" to 0.432" depending on the load and whose gun they came out of. Here is a picture of a case being shoved through a sizing die using the Lee Bulge Buster attachment to a single stage RCBS Rock Chucker press. Here is a picture of a case that has passed through the Lee Factory Crimp die - they come out around 0.421" to 0.423". Once the rounds have all been sized down to around 0.422", I use a standard Dillon carbide sizing die for 40S&W as another "push-though" operation. The Dillon die is roughly 0.417" ID and the decapping assembly, when removed, allows enough room for the round to pass completely through the die body. This step is a bit of a squeeze and requires a liberal application of case lube to keep it going smoothly. Here is a picture of a case that has passed through both the Lee and the Dillon dies - they come out around 0.416" to 0.417" at the base. The final sizing step is to use a Lee Undersize Resizing Die in the progressive press to decap and resize prior to expanding for bullet seating. The Lee U-Die measures 0.411" at the tightest spot in the carbide ring. The ring is tapered and the portion nearest the shellplate is roughly 0.418" so there is no chance of causing the huge belt on the bottom of the cases like I was experiencing before. This sizing process creates a cartridge that is smaller at the base than at the case mouth, resulting in more favorable nose-up pressure on the top rounds in the mag as well as more room for the rounds to stack on the way down. It has made my magazines 21 reloadable (they were 20 reloadable, but would "fit" 21 very tightly) and totally reliable. They are extremely close to holding 22 rounds (I'm guessing with more tuning I could squeeze the 22nd round in there). Summary I batch process my 40 brass off the progressive in two operations - 1st through a Lee Factory Crimp die and then through a Dillon carbide sizing die (important as this is the only brand available with the correct size carbide ring and pass-through capability). I finish it off with a Lee U-Die in the progressive press and the load I'm using is 4.2 grains of VV N310 with a 200 grain round nose flat point X-Treme plated bullet loaded to 1.200" OAL and taper crimped to 0.421". I found that a load length of 1.225" still leads to an occasional nose dive (1/100 rounds).

I beveled the leading edge and polished the bottom surface as general cleanup on the gun before ever shooting it. It improves this situation immensely and it was downright sharp from the factory.

I really like xtreme plated bullets. Maybe I should give those a try and just sell my Bear Creeks. Anybody want 3k bullets?

Gents, I have noticed a significant problem with lead fouling in my Limited. It now has 600 rounds of 200gr Bear Creek moly coated bullets through it. After the first 300 the barrel was disgusting! Lots of moly and lead deposits. After about an hour of scrubbing I got it cleaned up and the barrel surface finish seems really good. Shot another 300 and it is as disgusting if not more so now. The load is 4.3 WST at 1.180 OAL with .421 crimp using the 200gr Bear Creek. Past experience with BC bullets is really good. I used them in .45 for a few years and shot at least 20k loaded over bullseye, win AA lite, and N310. I could shoot thousands of rounds before cleaning the barrel and it usually only took a few swabs to come sparkling clean. There are two things I see here as being different from my .45 experience. First is the bullet relationship to the barrel when feeding. The 40 loaded long has a significant amount of bullet sitting down past the headspace ring in the chamber (into the leade). The 45 was a very short chamber and required almost no driving band exposed to chamber successfully. The other difference is the rifling style. The 45 had traditional land and groove style rifling and the 40 has polygonal rifling. The only thing I can think of is that the coating is being damaged when chambering as the bullet enters the leade at a slight angle and this is exposing bare lead against the bore. Some rounds that I hand cycle through the gun come out with scuffed shoulders and exposed lead after chambering. I did pull some loaded rounds to inspect the coating and crimp after loading and they looked perfect. No damage to the coating whatsoever. I think I will try to switch lots of bullets and see if the problem goes away with a different batch of bullets. Does anyone have any similar experience or know of anything to experiment with to get rid of the leading issue? I will switch to bullseye powder soon once my stock of WST is exhausted, so maybe that will help.

I tried a dummy round loaded to 1.225 and it would not plunk properly in my barrel. I was still able to feel some drag on the bullet at 1.210 and it fit free and clear at 1.200. I will try a batch at 1.200 and see if they run better.