What powders for 40?

[packeagle]

I like Clay's, for minor. I bought some 700x because I let myself all but run out of Clay's before looking again. It was all I could fine at the time. Haven't worked up a load yet so the jurry is still out.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Browning40]

231 or Vit N320.

231 shoots the same as far as I'm concerned but it is much dirtier.

[jayjay1]

Have to repeal what I´ve said before inhere.

As I found out now, Acc. No.2 and Alliant Green Dot brake in under hot weather conditions.

They lose a lot of power at high temperatures, and I don´t want to deal with two loads by looking for the weather (winter / summer load).

So I´m trying right now WST and N320.

Have to wait for cold weather now, to see how those work.....

[b1gcountry]

I am using wst at the moment because it is all i have, but reloading info is sparse, and I am pretty new, so I don't like to experiment.

I do have some crono data from this winter though. Will post when I get home if i remember.

Edited July 8, 2014 by b1gcountry

[Cherryriver]

I have to feed a set of .40 customs, two single-stacks and two Limiteds belonging to my partner/SO.

She's sponsored by SnS so the majority of what I know comes from those bullets, but I have a lot of time on Precision Delta 180 FMJs.

The standard bullet here has been the 200gr LRN, until last fall when SnS went to the coating. Now, it's all about the 200gr LRNCs.
When I arrived on the scene, it was all Universal. I initiated experiments with WST at the Stinars' suggestion.

I standardized on 3.9gr WST behind the blue-lube 200s loaded to 1.200" OAL. This appears to be the maximum length possible for both the Wilson single-stack mags and the Caspian double-stack ones, too.
The extra length over SAAMI max allows the long bullets to get started a mite slower and keeps the pressure curve a little steadier with the faster powders.

The Boss has long determined that faster powders make for a more favorable recoil. WST makes for a really good, reliable, soft-shooting load for her, with the understanding that WST speeds up in the cold. It's only a little dirty.
Then, we happened on to a large cache of VV 320 in an estate sale and went with that. I wound up using about a tenth-and-a-half less to get the same power, and 320 certainly is as clean-running as can be. (In .38 Special, it's a whole different planet!)

When the coated arrived, I found that I needed a tenth or two more to make the same speed in all calibers. At least, I thought so but sometimes I'm not so sure. The last batch of 4.0gr 320 chronoed high, about 178pf at Area 5.

Meanwhile, a pro reloader of our acquaintence suggested finding some Promo/Red Dot, which I'd never used. I grabbed four pounds of Red Dot, then located 24lbs of Promo (at a sane price!)
So far, after a couple hundred, I'm seeing 172pf with the 200gr LRNCs at 1.200" using only 3.7gr of the stuff.
No final determination on the softness/recoil impulse/slide speed equation but there seems to be something there with Red Dot/Promo.

(Side note: Promo is said to be a more dense or concentrated form of Red Dot. I'm also told to use the same charge weights even though the Promo version is denser and requires a reset on the charge bar.)
So, that's what I know about .40, and I don't even own or shoot .40. 'Course, in these parts, Limited Division is called "the Dark Side". So I've heard.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Cherryriver

[jayjay1]

Hm, the producer of coated bullets over here, "Ares bullets", tells that you gain more velocity with the same powder charge, and that seems to be true for me.

First I was thinking, that this is just another marketing slogan, but then I´ve used their 153gr. coated bullets in 9mm Luger with pretty good success (the .40s didn´t fly very well out of my pistol) and I could use one tenth of a grain less to get the PF, so.

Just my 2cents.

[2011WRBSTI]

Then, we happened on to a large cache of VV 320 in an estate sale and went with that.

I grabbed four pounds of Red Dot, then located 24lbs of Promo (at a sane price!)

Quoted - two sentences from your great information

I must live in the wrong state.....I haven't seen any powder in that quantity not even Triple 7

[Cherryriver]

Every cookie jar in the building was in immediate peril when that Promo appeared on the screen as "available".

Ballistic Products was the dealer, but of course it was all gone that day.

[2011WRBSTI]

Every cookie jar in the building was in immediate peril when that Promo appeared on the screen as "available".

Ballistic Products was the dealer, but of course it was all gone that day.

Oh I imagine....However, I do not remember that specific powder popping up in the discussions for good 40 major powder.

[Cherryriver]

Well, I never gave Red Dot a bit of thought for this or anything else before, but it's turning into a happy discovery.

I did up a run of the SnS 200gr coated RNs with only 3.5gr of Red Dot behind them. I grabbed the SO's slowest .40, her backup 5" Single Stack gun with a Nowlin barrel and took it to the range.

This load almost made major, much to my surprise, averaging 809fps over ten rounds in a warm gun. The extreme spread was only 24fps. In the six-incher, it would certainly make it.

If the minimum weight of powder to make power is a goal, then Red Dot might be the answer.
Meanwhile, my young cohort who instructs with us (and made Master in Limited in only a very few years) and shares considerable reloader-geekery broke out his cache of new Red Dot and stuck it behind his preferred 180gr slugs. A 4.5gr charge propelled his old Bear Creeks to 940. The SnS lads visited our USPSA match Sunday and distributed many coateds to the crowd, Mike taking a load of their 180s. I expect chrono results shortly.
So, what am I going to do with the 20-25 pounds of VV320 we have left? Is there a special recycling facility?

Oh, yeah, my .38 Specials.

(Edited with better picture.)

Edited July 15, 2014 by Cherryriver

[johnbu]

A lot of guys profess the Alliant Power Pistol

I was able to get some pp recently. Works good as a .40 minor load. Haven't tried over that.

Using 180gr coated bullets loaded to 1.148- 1.152.

4.2gr = 740fps

4.6gr = 800 fps

4.9gr = 840fps

5.2 gr = 883 fps

The 4.2gr cycled and locked on empty but the cases just barely cleared the gun (xdm 4.5 factory recoil spring). A little to close to not functioning, even though there were no fails.

For that reason, settled on using the 4.6gr. Cases landed just a couple ft away in a nice pile. May reevaluate when lighter springs from wolfe get here.

[CKing866]

johnbu:

I'm working on a minor load for my .40 XDM 5.25 using Power Pistol and 180 grain Blake Bullets. I've installed a 14# Wolff recoil spring. Would you mind sharing some follow-up observations on the loads you listed above? Thanks.

[johnbu]

CKing,

What do you want to hear? I loaded 3 pounds of power pistol with that load, about half shot from an xdm (4.5") and the other half from a tanfoglio match. It worked pretty well, but I haven't found any more locally. A faster powder would give less recoil and might be cleaner, but it wasn't bad.

[IATURNKEY]

Using Tight Group with great results in both Major and Minor. I had used Power Pistol in the past and found that it performed better loaded at Major levels.

Edited June 24, 2015 by IATURNKEY

[CKing866]

johnbu:

Thanks for the reply. Mainly wanted to get your thoughts on the 4.6 grn. load after switching to lighter recoil spring and whether you still liked the load. Sounds like you were satisfied with the result.

[zzt]

Here is a tip for any of you looking for certain types of powders. ATA trapshooters buy and use vast quantities of shotshell powders. This includes Promo, Red Dot, e3, American Select, Green Dot, Unique, WST, TiteGroup, etc. If you are interested in any of these powders, consider going to the vendor area of any large State Shoot. For example, the PA State ATA shoot ran from 13 Jun through 21 Jun. There was a lot of these powders available. One vendor limited you to one 8lb jug per day. The other allowed two per day. Everyone I know who wanted powder got it. By the end of the week the picking were pretty slim.

There are other big shoots as well. The Ohio State shoot is going on now. They will also host the Mid-Summer Classic in July and the Cardinal Classic in August. PA will have the Westy Hogans in September. The ATA Grand American shoot will be in August in IL. If you can't find powder there, you never will.

Edited June 25, 2015 by zzt

[Rob Tompkins]

Since the last time this thread was active, I've done some load development with ETR-7 from Expansion Industries. I found it to be EXTREAMLY clean burning. Its a bit slower than Tightgroup (5.1 gr for 180 gr plated X-Treme bullets) but Tightgourp data is a good starting point, just work up from there. I get single digit SD's and very good accuracy. Its very fluffy so it fills the available case volume ~90%. It meters well in my Hornady measure. Current price is on par with most ($18/lb). I would pick it over most others due to how clean it burns.

[Cherryriver]

Well, since this thread is back on the screen, I shall add an update about the dealings with Red Dot/Promo in these precincts.

Short version: it's Red Dot for .40 USPSA loads henceforth.

The Boss went to the Limited Nats last autumn with her Canyon Creeks and a hastily-assembled thousand Red Dot loads and that settled it. The ammunition was perfect and more pleasant to shoot than anything else I've put up for her to try.

The 200gr SnS coated round nose still holds sway, combining perfect, and I mean perfect, function in all four of her .40s and the recoil impulse she wants.

While 3.6gr of Red Dot worked, a bit of distrust of some chronos including our own had me run the charge up to 3.75gr (yeah, I know a Dillon won't get that close with this powder but I like to also weigh a ten-charge collection to verify).

The last major-match chrono that saw this load thought it went about 175pf as I recall, a bit much but we've all seen fluctuations and security won out.
Yes, it's a bit dirtier running than the replaced 320 but it's not been a problem, not for someone who's a chef during the daytime and cleaning the tools is frequent thing. The velocity spreads are about equal.

For day-to-day use I've been running through the Promo jugs and it's been fine. I use exactly the same charge weight and get exactly the same results. Still, superstition has me go to the pricier Red Dot for the majors.

Promo's been working it's way into my .45ACP loads for my guns, too. Cheap and not much less good than the VV310 my .45s like so much. Plus, when loading up to standard power for clone loads, the Promo goes there easily without even hitting book max loads (unlike 310- can't make hardball with that). Again, dirtier by a notch but my guns are good Colts- my Special Combat Government SS gun goes 1000-1500 rounds between cleanings with the SnS coateds no problem.

Count this household as a Red Dot redoubt.

And, since there was all this Promo on hand, it was given a try at the Single Stack Minor loads she puts in her .38 Super SS guns. And it works, really well. At the Single Stack Classic, 135gr round-nose SnS coateds with around 3.4gr Red Dot in the .38 SuperComp cases went 172pf and ran, again, utterly perfectly, and she had to shoot on the monsoon day, Friday. (Only 1 mike all day on bagged targets, too, I might add!)(Must be the ammo!).

Edited June 25, 2015 by Cherryriver

[cwall64]

Welcome to the 40 crowd!

The most important thing to know about loading 40S&W for our sport is that if you go for 40 major you'll be loading outside of SAMI specs and manufacturer published loads. There's tons of great info here on doing it and a lot of us do it with confidence, but it's something to give an extra measure of respect. As you read up on it here you'll run across, "...and that's how you get a kaboom too!"

Another detail you'll run across is whether you end up loading long or short. 40S&W pistols that evolved from 9mm platforms have a more strict COAL than those that evolved from the 1911 platform. And some who shoot 1911 platforms say they actually have to load long (up to 1.200) for reliability. So that's something to keep in mind about your Brazos.

As for powders, a number of us have found CFE Pistol available recently. It's a new powder so we're still learning our competition loads, but early tests are looking good for 40 major. In fact I just posted some of my chrono findings in another thread.

I am just reloading for sport shooting, but help me understand major power factor. I am loading 40 S&W off Alliant's website (for BE-86) to a max load for 180 grain TMC bullets and when run through the chronograph I am getting average of 1033 fps with a power factor of ~186 (chrony calculated). Is that major and it is within the manufacturers range (so it should be within SAMI)?

[Cherryriver]

"Major" power in USPSA begins at 165 power factor. Your load is well above that floor.
If you mean, does your load fall within SAAMI specs for pressure, about all most of us can do is go with the manufacturer's tables. If Alliant's site says it's within spec, it's good to go, to the extent they can know.
You still have to work up from a reduced charge to the full charge while watching closely for what overpressure signs are available to we non-manufacturers.

[AJE]

I'm pleased to see another couple guys talking about loading Red Dot under 200 grain coated.

I developed that load with my Glock 22 in anticipation of getting my Glock 35... the G22 will make major with 3.55 (averaged 10 loads)... JUST make major, but it made it with one round out of ten dropping below the threshold (and the average above). I'm not sure how much of a velocity bonus I get with the longer barrel in the 35 since I haven't tested it yet.

[cwall64]

"Major" power in USPSA begins at 165 power factor. Your load is well above that floor.

If you mean, does your load fall within SAAMI specs for pressure, about all most of us can do is go with the manufacturer's tables. If Alliant's site says it's within spec, it's good to go, to the extent they can know.

You still have to work up from a reduced charge to the full charge while watching closely for what overpressure signs are available to we non-manufacturers.

Thanks for easing my mind! I did workup from 10% below as Alliant recommended (they only list max charge weight).

[jmbaccolyte]

I decided to buy a very slightly used Brazos High Performance Edge in 40 s&w. What powder(s) that are available are good for loading 40 major? I have never reloaded for 40 before. Anything special I need to know? In my area I am having trouble finding any handgun powders. Also, I have not reloaded in 8 years, so probably time for a new reloading manual. Which do you suggest?

Yeah, powder is very scarce here too (upper midwest U.S.A.). Primers are available though and at decent prices too, so that's what I've been buying. When powder is available again at a decent price I will buy Clays for minor, WST for major and AutoComp or Longshot for stiffer loads.

PS: I'd buy cases too now if I thought I might ever need anymore. At my age though I guess I have enough, already.

PPS: Hodgdon's manual is on their website and includes Winchester powders as well.

[Mike21STI]

If you are loading long you can try ramshot competition

[Hoosiershooter]

Is anyone using CFE yet? I've been loading quite a bit of 9 with it. And just worked up some .40 loads. It was pushing 180's around 1000. It was clean too. Considering the amount I have i doubt it will change.