USPSA----How much should members know?

[Trent1k1]

If the decision to release the HHF is now at the Executive Director level, then shouldnt she be able to describe when and how they will be released?

It sounds like the BOD made the decision, announced it in their notes and are simply waiting for the orders to be executed.

As far as getting information out to the public, there was zero problem getting the Executive letter out to the public. It was posted on this forum, Facebook and on The Doodie Project forums. I don't persanally believe that the information isnt released because it is too hard to do. I believe there are other reasons why it isn't done and my thoughts are based on the Appearance of how so many other things are handled.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Trent1k1

[j33716]

I came on board in January as AD6. Sarge is right that many come on board with visions of getting something done, changing the ways and making things better. What most new BOD members forget is to listen to the existing problems, understand the current personalities and absorb the methods. Although I have the corporate experience, I also like to get things done. I had my ideas but made it a point to listen to the first meeting. What I saw and heard was not a surprise. What I absorbed were many other issues that had the same common components and needs to fix them. The biggest issue I see is the lack of documentation. Policy, procedure and BOD minutes are just the start. My focus has changed to impress among the BOD and management that we need more documentation within. Documentation is a big part of the communication.

Keep in mind, the BOD is a volunteer position and demands a lot of time. That time is taken away from your family, your job and your personal time. To get things done it takes meetings. Meetings allow for the discussion and decision making process. There are issues that arise from time to time that are unexpected and they stall the forward progress. The recent special meeting we had was one of those meetings. It was a productive meeting that contained sensitive material and as a result, we are moving forward.

In general, I see very little that needs to be kept secret in USPSA, excepting personal information and legal issues. I feel the members have a right to understand the way the board works, what is on the mind of the directors, what issues are at hand and what hurdles may be holding us back. Better documentation would cover a lot of this. Conspiracy theories arise from lack of information. With more documentation and communication, these theories are lessened.

HHF has been a long standing sore point for many members. Although you can easily reverse calculate the HHF, I see no reason to not publish them. From what I can tell, the BOD has been on other items and the subject did not take priority. What I see as a more important HHF issue is the formula. It needs to be standardized and published. As AD6 I have proposed a formula. Right or wrong I am working to get it on the meeting agenda. It's a process.

Jay Corn A6

[Chills1994]

Here is Zhunter's thread from 2008 on the Single Stack HHF's being the same as L-10 HHF's:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=64684&hl=%2Bhhf#entry751179

One of the main arguments you hear or read from people who are proponents of the classification system is "but...but...it's like shooting in a big postal match...you get to see how you stack up against somebody in Miami, Florida or Frog Holler, Nebraska."

Well, ummn...err...no, it is NOT a postal match if the HHF's are derived or SWAG'ed from some other source than not actually being shot, and everybody else's scores "pivot" around the actual best score submitted.

[ctay]

Christopher Taylor, in some of your posts in the locked thread, you made some definitive statements about how nothing is being done inappropriately by the BoD, etc. In one comment of yours, you state:

"The three issues you mention here either already were in the process of being fixed when you made your posts or were being discussed. That is why I say that your comments were both unproductive and unnecessarily damaging to the organizations image. "

I am curious how you can come to that conclusion? Are you basing your conclusion on the information available in the BoD minutes? Are you privy to information that others here are not?

-snip-

I made no accusations in my previous posts. I noted that actions the give the "appearance" of impropriety must be avoided by the BoD.

The only superpower I have is the ability to read. All the issues complained about in that thread were discussed in the letter to the membership which - as has been pointed out - was widely distributed.

Conspiracy and Appearance of impropriety are very loaded terms. Basically an extension of the "have you stopped beating your wife" trap. Perhaps it would be better to actually say what impropriety you currently see the appearance of?

Without 20 years of experience I only judge the things I see right now. And from what I can tell there seems to be a group of people with an axe to grind. That isn't necessarily a bad thing if there is a legitimate reason to grind that axe - however the HHF and East coast Nationals don't seem to be strong enough issues to bring out the fire and brimstone I see.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[ctay]

In short - I have been to Roswell but never saw an alien. I see a lot of people selling goods based on that story though and maybe there is a correlation to this in that.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Edited May 11, 2014 by ctay

[whitedog]

Part of how HHF is determined would be part of releasing the info. I should have explained better. My bad.

Hopefully the BOD can work on present issues and move forward. There's probably a lot more involved than many know.

The org has been moving forward and changing things for the better. Posting classifier updates more often being one of them. New Front Sight format also.

It would be good if that direction remains.

[Charles Bond]

When the agendas posted lack enough detail to advise the membership what is being discussed and the minutes posted fail to advise how and why a decision was make, when the financial records of the organization are not fully available to each and every member, when no supporting documentation or even the document approved is attached to the minutes, when we see the BOD meeting repeatedly in executive session and when we hear that members of the BOD have been hired for compensation by USPSA without BOD approval which is required by the Bylaws, that is when an appearance of impropriety arises. As Jay points out the HOW of doing something is often more important than what you do. For the BOD to enjoy the full support of the membership, they must become more transparent in their process of decision making and reporting those decisions to the members which they are elected to serve.

[remoandiris]

At my local gun club, the 9 member board has 3 directors and 6 officers. Of the 6 officers, 4 of them have been on the board for at LEAST 5 years. Most of them have been on the board in some capacity for 10 years or more.

The board has violated the club's bylaws in various ways for years. Whenever they get called on it, whether by another board member or by a club member, no changes are made, just lip service. My club has over 3000 members, yet we barely get 10% to the annual elections. When the masses don't care, nothing changes.

As long as the burgers are hot and the beer is cold, the masses are satisfied and change flounders.

I don't see what all the angst is about with the USPSA BOD. I go to my local club and others in my area and shoot matches under USPSA rules. Beyond that...

Edited May 11, 2014 by remoandiris

[Jaxshooter]

I agree with Chills 1994. Just because the SC purchase was 7 years ago the membership has a right to know what it cost along with any other major expenditures. The money spent is the members money. I along with many others want to know where our money is going and the planned long term results of those expenditures. What is the long term benefit to the USPSA and it's members. This certainly will not hurt the organization. Right now it seems to be a shady deal due to the refusal to provide the information.

If the Executive Director was told they could release the HHF why has it not been done? As far as posting to the USPSA Forums it seems to be a waste of time. There is far more information discussed and available on the BE Forum.

[Sarge]

At my local gun club, the 9 member board has 3 directors and 6 officers. Of the 6 officers, 4 of them have been on the board for at LEAST 5 years. Most of them have been on the board in some capacity for 10 years or more.

The board has violated the club's bylaws in various ways for years. Whenever they get called on it, whether by another board member or by a club member, no changes are made, just lip service. My club has over 3000 members, yet we barely get 10% to the annual elections. When the masses don't care, nothing changes.

As long as the burgers are hot and the beer is cold, the masses are satisfied and change flounders.

I don't see what all the angst is about with the USPSA BOD. I go to my local club and others in my area and shoot matches under USPSA rules. Beyond that...

Agreed on the local club part. I served a short stint on my local club board of over 2000 members. Thought I could effect change. Yeah right!! A simple no vote can get you on the wrong side of things real quick. But at least the club puts out minutes and only went into executive session in cases of discipline or some other personal issue and that is how it should be. Executive session should not be used as a crutch or excuse for not putting out info so it can be kept quiet.

I guess I really don't have many issues with HQ. I am actually a little more disappointed that I rarely hear anything from my AD or even the SC. If they don't engage the rank and file on some level then yes it just seems like we are paying USPSA for the privilege to shoot matches. It would be just as easy to shoot outlaw matches and keep the money. We have to feel like we are getting something in return.

[wgnoyes]

If the decision to release the HHF is now at the Executive Director level, then shouldnt she be able to describe when and how they will be released?

It sounds like the BOD made the decision, announced it in their notes and are simply waiting for the orders to be executed.

....

...They've been waiting for some years now...

[Chills1994]

In this high tech computer/internet age, have the bylaws kept up? I mean in terms of privacy. Is there anything in the bylaws to keep the USPSA member list from being sold by the USPSA to some commercial or business entity?

What is the privacy policy USPSA has with its members, if any?

[skargoh]

New guy here....

What does it matter about the hhf stuff?

Shoot faster , more accurately, and we will move up, no?

And oh... utah isn't on the west coast either.

Seems like people just need something to complain about. Everyone needs a cause.

[Sarge]

For what it's worth I just sent this with a link to this thread to the powers that be and all AD's.

Hello,

My name is Kevin Sanders I am a member(TY64885) residing in Area 5. I urge you to take a few minutes to look through the link below and possibly find the time to reach out to the membership with any comments you may have.

I believe there are more than a few valid concerns being posted by several long standing members of USPSA. Not the least among them is communication between yourselves and the rank and file. When communication is lacking people tend to make up their own minds on a particular subject. To many, a lack of communication equates to, "There are things we are keeping from you". You should find this as unsettling as I do and take some action to reassure the membership.

I feel permanent harm can be done to the organization as a whole if the sentiments of those posting in the link are left unanswered and allowed to continue growing. I personally feel I am getting very little in return for my membership fees and more importantly for the classifier fees that are required to be paid. When I hear nothing from my President, Executive Director, Area director or Section Coordinator for months or even years it makes me wonder why I don't just hold outlaw matches and keep the money I pay to USPSA every month. Granted, a letter was recently published that discussed some pending changes and improvements. That was great to see and it sounds like we are on the right track. Yet there are still many unanswered questions pertaining to some recent rules changes that were made with virtually no input from the membership. There also appear to be lingering financial questions on the minds of many. If you were able to publish the letter outlining upcoming changes that shows you could just as easily reach out to the membership to seek input or answer vital questions that come up. Certainly there is an email database of the vast majority of members.

Thank you for your time and we hope to hear from USPSA HQ soon.

Regards,

Kevin Sanders

[Steve RA]

The reply, if any, should be interesting !!

[wgnoyes]

Absolutely there's an email database of the membership. They just used it this last week to send out the "USPSA Down Range" email newsletter, which was a very welcome surprise.

[Chills1994]

New guy here....

What does it matter about the hhf stuff?

Shoot faster , more accurately, and we will move up, no?

And oh... utah isn't on the west coast either.

Seems like people just need something to complain about. Everyone needs a cause.

It's "your" money. You are paying for it.

It has been mentioned here before in another threads of how a new series of classifiers will get published, and then a month or two later, POOF! there are a bunch more new masters and GM's listed in Front Sight magazine.

And there are people here who have kept track of such things, and they go on to say that a month or three later, the HHF's get moved up.

I haven't checked it for myself. I was hoping those guys were joking....being facetious.

[Jaxshooter]

Very well said Kevin. Who replies and the information they provide should be interesting.

[skargoh]

So hf goes up on older classifiers that some people have had a long time to practice and get better at?

Woah. Earthshattering. I think I will write a letter.

[Pasley]

I'm a retired accountant. From looking at the 2007 form 990 it appears to me that USPSA paid about $76,000 for Steel Challenge.

[Chills1994]

So hf goes up on older classifiers that some people have had a long time to practice and get better at?

Woah. Earthshattering. I think I will write a letter.

But do we really know they got better at them....because USPSA.org doesn't publish a records webpage per classifier, per division listing who actually shot a 110% or 120% classifier, what his name was, what his USPSA member number is, which club, his raw time, his stage points, etc.

Ya, know, maybe if somebody from USPSA HQ had come right out, FIRST, and said "We don't have enough historical data to base single stack HHF's on, yet, so we are going to make them the same as L-10." maybe things would have gone a little smoother, and people like zhunter....me...and a few others wouldn't have our collective tits in a wringer.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Chills1994

[atbarr]

Absolutely there's an email database of the membership. They just used it this last week to send out the "USPSA Down Range" email newsletter, which was a very welcome surprise.

I didn't receive that. I just emailed Val, requesting a copy be emailed to me and making sure they have my email. They do, I just checked my profile. Edited May 11, 2014 by atbarr

[Chills1994]

Very well said Kevin. Who replies and the information they provide should be interesting.

There are other forum members here who have been given the "keys" to the classifier database and each time this topic comes up, they are eye searingly absent from these kinds of threads.

[skargoh]

There are guys that shoot classifiers over and over and over all day until they get 100% scores or more.

Being new... I have never practiced a classifier. But it seems pretty obvious to me, that those who practice them will drive the scores up over time.

Just go shoot.

[Trent1k1]

New guy here....

What does it matter about the hhf stuff?

Shoot faster , more accurately, and we will move up, no?

At a club I shot last week, the final squad determined that the classifier had been setup incorrectly. In this particular case the distance from the box to the targets was actually too far. Although 2 of the three squads had already shot the stage thinking they had shot a classifier, it was thrown out as it wouldnt be fair to these shooters and it would "potentially" skew the classifier results nationwide. (We had Master to D class shooters at the match)

I'd be interested in the historical data of the classifiers. Who shot it, where they shot it, etc. If the data panned out that there "might" be a club to go shoot all your classifiers at in order to move up that would very quickly be made obvious.

Does not knowing how classifier HHF are calculated keep me awake at night? No way.

In this day age of access to information and databases it would not be a huge project to make that available to the membership.