Short people can’t see the target?

[StraightUp_OG]

So I am 6'8" and at my club I shoot with Michelle V. a fair bit and we have discussed (read joked about) this topic.

We were on a stage where there were 2 plate racks at about 15 yards and directly (inches) in front of the shooting box was a fake palm tree that obscured to some degree both plate racks. She had the trunk and some branches that affected her and I had almost the complete top of the palm affecting me. She seemed at first blush to have an advantage but the shooting angle proved that not to be true. We both tanked the stage and the design was fair and provided no advantage to height. So good stage design negated the issue.

With this being said, addressing Tiny Warrior's inability to get taller ;-) , my height gives me a very distinct advantage. At almost every match I attend there are walls/snow fence or barricades that I can shoot over. The rule book says that walls are infinitely low but they are only as tall as built (unless otherwise stated in the stage briefing). Most of the time this is missed by the designer/RM. This year at the WSSSC I mentioned it to the MD the day before the match because unless corrected I was going to piss off a lot of people. ;-P

They made the change and I shot the stages as defined.

My point is really tall and really short shooters are the fringe few but the rules and stages need to be an equal test. Changing the rule wording just a bit and more fore thought for the fringe during stage design will correct these issues.

Edited April 8, 2014 by StraightUp_OG

[Sherwyn]

The stage in question was Stage 9 - Don't Lose Your Shirt at the 2013 Area 3 Championship. My wife was the shooter in question. She is 5' 4". I'm sure she wasn't the shortest person shooting.

It was not a no-shoot in front of a scoring target, it was a big wooden wire spool that completely covered the target for her. There was only one port from which it could be shot. She could not even see the target, but knew it was there from the walk-through.

Hm. You mean this stage?

http://youtu.be/5yTsx7CQIF0?t=8m25s

...because I remember that stage pretty well (I was the CRO for that stage, actually) and all of the ports but one were really low-cut, and there were some barrels and walls (including more ports in the interior of the stage) but I don't recall any spools (maybe I'm misremembering, though I don't think so). Spools were certainly used in that way on stage 12, though, and I could see that possibly being an issue there. (I recall having some not-fun shots there, actually.)

If it was stage 9, why didn't anyone say anything? If a shooter can't see a target, it is pretty common to get a block to stand on for their run. No one mentioned any issues (ever) with seeing any targets on that stage, and it makes it difficult to fix issues if no one says anything...and we certainly don't want people taking random shots.

Sure it wasn't this stage?

http://youtu.be/5yTsx7CQIF0?t=1m42s

....anyway, point being: the range officials during match setup try to make sure that sort of thing won't happen in the first place. In the event that it does happen, the shooter has to say something to the CRO of the stage, after what the RM will give permission for accommodations to be made. Can't shoot the stage if you can't see the targets, and boxes and steps have been used plenty of times in the past in situations like this.

Let me echo - if you have any similar issue, talk to the stage crew and let them help.

As for Area 3, I apologize if we missed that. I think I remember the target you are referring to, it was almost fully visible from another port, but for some reason many did not see it from that location.

Maybe that wasn't the same target, but I personally walked the stages with a junior shooter to look for any issues.

We did have steps available for anyone that requested them, but only remember them being used at a 4' wall.

Sherwyn

Area 3 director

[Strick]

Being taller, which I am not t 5'8" (not i the "short" crowd either), is a bit of an advantage more times than being smaller. At the TX Open this year there was a stage that had 4 targets obscured by a field of no-shoots at the last position. Taller shooters could take one position and get a good look at all the targets, at least heads on some, over the no-shoots. Shorter shooters needed to go to 2 positions to see 2 on either side. Some could say their was an advantage but time saved by 1 position was lost by aiming at a harder target.

Obviously not the same as not being able to see a target but sometimes the perceived disadvantage is just that, perceived ant not real.

[High Lord Gomer]

...

With this being said, addressing Tiny Warrior's inability to get taller ;-) , my height gives me a very distinct advantage. At almost every match I attend there are walls/snow fence or barricades that I can shoot over. The rule book says that walls are infinitely low but they are only as tall as built (unless otherwise stated in the stage briefing). Most of the time this is missed by the designer/RM. This year at the WSSSC I mentioned it to the MD the day before the match because unless corrected I was going to piss off a lot of people. ;-P

They made the change and I shot the stages as defined.

...

I applaud your integrity! We frequently have a 6'8" shooter and I make it a point to include that the walls go from the ground to the sky (unless I allow them to shoot under).

[JAFO]

Tip for set-up crew and stage staff: When evaluating the stage for shoot throughs, etc, also bend your knees to lower your height to about 5 feet tall -- this may help you identify and fix such a situation during set-up......

Yep, we used to have some vertically challenged competitors at out matches......

....and they taught us to do this proactively..... :)

We also got into this habit to make sure nothing goes over the berms on swingers or DTs when the targets are set high on the stands.

[ttownracer]

"I've heard this before, but you have the ability to get low, I can't get taller."

Agreed!

I'm shorter than avg. male, but often run into this issue. For every stage better suited for us short folks, ten give taller shooters an advantage. Would be nice to use a platform at major matches to get similar look at targets thru ports. And in my experience increasing vertical measurement in both directions only further benefits tall shooters while lowering bottom often doesn't reveal the target either.

Stapling No-Shoot to target rather than 3-D obstructions is better stage design, or give us shorties a side of the target an not just the top.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[motosapiens]

I'm shorter than avg. male, but often run into this issue. For every stage better suited for us short folks, ten give taller shooters an advantage. Would be nice to use a platform at major matches to get similar look at targets thru ports. And in my experience increasing vertical measurement in both directions only further benefits tall shooters while lowering bottom often doesn't reveal the target either.

Stapling No-Shoot to target rather than 3-D obstructions is better stage design, or give us shorties a side of the target an not just the top.

So when you design stages or volunteer to set up stages at your local matches, do you do things any differently?

[ChuckS]

"I've heard this before, but you have the ability to get low, I can't get taller."

Agreed!

I'm shorter than avg. male, but often run into this issue. For every stage better suited for us short folks, ten give taller shooters an advantage.

I don't know where you shoot but Being 6'4", I totally disagree with this observation. An easy port for you is a low port for me. A low port for you, is damn near prone for me. It is always either get stable but I have to do happy feet to see all the targets or be unstable and shoot with (more of) a wobble. It is very rare that I get to shoot over something.

Later,

Chuck

PS: this may be due to the fact that mostly Pinoy build the stages out here

[Tiny Warrior]

"I've heard this before, but you have the ability to get low, I can't get taller."

Agreed!

I'm shorter than avg. male, but often run into this issue. For every stage better suited for us short folks, ten give taller shooters an advantage.

I don't know where you shoot but Being 6'4", I totally disagree with this observation. An easy port for you is a low port for me. A low port for you, is damn near prone for me. It is always either get stable but I have to do happy feet to see all the targets or be unstable and shoot with (more of) a wobble. It is very rare that I get to shoot over something.

Later,

Chuck

PS: this may be due to the fact that mostly Pinoy build the stages out here

Depending on one's physical ability (and port/wall height), spreading your feet & bending your knees to get lower is much more stable than standing on your tippy toes trying to shoot a target over a wall that's up to your armpits

[ChuckS]

Depending on one's physical ability (and port/wall height), spreading your feet & bending your knees to get lower is much more stable than standing on your tippy toes trying to shoot a target over a wall that's up to your armpits

I discovered that trying to shoot over stuff. Sometimes just being able to do something is not always best. Sometimes I wish I was as tall as Endersby. I really like it when there are vertical slits. Good for everyone. I would probably trip over platforms!

I really don't know what it is like to be on your side of the 95 percentile. But I guess being comfortable in a coach airplane seat is one of the perks .

Later,

Chuck

[Tiny Warrior]

Depending on one's physical ability (and port/wall height), spreading your feet & bending your knees to get lower is much more stable than standing on your tippy toes trying to shoot a target over a wall that's up to your armpits

I discovered that trying to shoot over stuff. Sometimes just being able to do something is not always best. Sometimes I wish I was as tall as Endersby. I really like it when there are vertical slits. Good for everyone. I would probably trip over platforms!

I really don't know what it is like to be on your side of the 95 percentile. But I guess being comfortable in a coach airplane seat is one of the perks .

Later,

Chuck

Yes, verticals slits will pretty much end the short/tall debate!

Being short is nice sitting in coach, but I'd need someone like you to help me stow my baggage in the overhead storage

[Sarge]

If you have to be a certain height to ride a roller coaster, why don't we.........

Edited April 9, 2014 by Sarge

[ChuckS]

Being short is nice sitting in coach, but I'd need someone like you to help me stow my baggage in the overhead storage

I wind up helping someone on almost every flight I take. What I can't believe is how many people just sit and watch shorter folks struggle but that discussion belongs elsewhere...

Undrift: Vertical slits rock!

[p7fl]

I am surprised that no one has brought up arm length.

We shoot one match each month where 4 stages share one open bay. As a result there is a lot of shooting around the ends of barriers.

It is easier and faster for the taller usually longer armed shooters to round a corner and shoot in. The shorter shooter has to pull up, balance and aim more carefully.

Never seen a good answer for combining challenge/difficulty with fairness.

[Sarge]

The shorter shooter has to pull up, balance and aim more carefully.

But they can see the targets right? In the OP the shooter was unable to even see the target. That's significantly different I believe.

Same thing happens with very low ports. The younger shooters can do that much easier and faster than the older shooters but both age groups can still see the targets.

The only way equity can ever be evenly applied is in the stages themselves not with shooters. There will always be short, tall, fat, seniors, juniors, women, etc. The varying shooter make ups will never make true equity possible. All we can do is set up the stages so they are fair to ANY shooter. If you have a target that can not be seen from ANY portion of a port that is not legal.

Of course, if the target is visible from elsewhere in the stage this makes it a little less illegal but now you have a shooter who can see it from multiple places and a few shooters that can only see it from one place. Not fair at all.

[lcs]

If you are to short to see the targets through a port; you can request a box or whatever from the RM. The box does not have to stay there for every competitior . All you did was enable the shorter competitor to have the same view or position as every other competitor had.

Been my gripe for years, ports that are high or low etc. It is an easy problem to correct. How is fair if several competitors can just squat a little and several competitors have to go to a knee. The answer; It is not fair and does not present the same challenge.

I'm not for a lot of rules, but size and location of ports should be defined. You can have a "range" to allow for stage design.

[EkuJustice]

I agree on the low ports chuck for taller shooters.

Edited April 10, 2014 by EkuJustice

[frag316]

The stage in question was Stage 9 - Don't Lose Your Shirt at the 2013 Area 3 Championship. My wife was the shooter in question. She is 5' 4". I'm sure she wasn't the shortest person shooting.

It was not a no-shoot in front of a scoring target, it was a big wooden wire spool that completely covered the target for her. There was only one port from which it could be shot. She could not even see the target, but knew it was there from the walk-through.

Hm. You mean this stage?

http://youtu.be/5yTsx7CQIF0?t=8m25s

...because I remember that stage pretty well (I was the CRO for that stage, actually) and all of the ports but one were really low-cut, and there were some barrels and walls (including more ports in the interior of the stage) but I don't recall any spools (maybe I'm misremembering, though I don't think so). Spools were certainly used in that way on stage 12, though, and I could see that possibly being an issue there. (I recall having some not-fun shots there, actually.)

If it was stage 9, why didn't anyone say anything? If a shooter can't see a target, it is pretty common to get a block to stand on for their run. No one mentioned any issues (ever) with seeing any targets on that stage, and it makes it difficult to fix issues if no one says anything...and we certainly don't want people taking random shots.

Sure it wasn't this stage?

http://youtu.be/5yTsx7CQIF0?t=1m42s

....anyway, point being: the range officials during match setup try to make sure that sort of thing won't happen in the first place. In the event that it does happen, the shooter has to say something to the CRO of the stage, after what the RM will give permission for accommodations to be made. Can't shoot the stage if you can't see the targets, and boxes and steps have been used plenty of times in the past in situations like this.

Let me echo - if you have any similar issue, talk to the stage crew and let them help.

As for Area 3, I apologize if we missed that. I think I remember the target you are referring to, it was almost fully visible from another port, but for some reason many did not see it from that location.

Maybe that wasn't the same target, but I personally walked the stages with a junior shooter to look for any issues.

We did have steps available for anyone that requested them, but only remember them being used at a 4' wall.

Sherwyn

Area 3 director

That junior wasn't related to you, was he? Your whole family seems like it's 8' tall!