Small Magnum Primers

[02Fatboy]

Can you use small pistol magnum primers in the place of small rifle primers? And please stay on topic.

[aandabooks]

If you restart your load development. Start low and work up. Don't know that I would totally recommend it as the SPM should be hotter than the SR.

[02Fatboy]

I do know you can use SFP for SPP.

[RDA]

I do know you can use SFP for SPP.

What is SFP?

aandabooks gave a reasonable answer to the original question but I will add that more information is needed (weapon, use, etc.). I wouldn't recommend any pistol primer in an AR-15 for example.

[02Fatboy]

Sorry.

Small rifle primers and I am wanting to use them in a AR15 load. (Maybe) I have 10k on hand and no small rifle primers. Just asking if you could use them. I can work up a new load. If they would be ok to use. Thanks

[RDA]

Sorry.

Small rifle primers and I am wanting to use them in a AR15 load. (Maybe) I have 10k on hand and no small rifle primers. Just asking if you could use them. I can work up a new load. If they would be ok to use. Thanks

They should physically interchange, the issue in using them with an AR15 is that the small pistol magnum primer cup thickness is very thin (0.017"), even thinner than small rifle (0.020") which is generally not recommended for AR15s (which typically call for a primer with 0.025" thick cup).

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=177116

[bigedp51]

"NO"

Small pistol primers ara NOT designed for rifle chamber pressures of 55,000 psi!!!

​Sierra Exterior Ballistics

Reloading Basics

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/primer.cfm

SMALL PRIMERS Small Pistol

Used with most of the smaller handgun cartridges, from the .357 Magnum down to the .25 ACP, when faster burning, easy to ignite powders are being loaded. Small pistol primers, either standard or magnum, must not be used for rifle cartridges. The higher operating pressures common to these cartridges (even when used in a pistol, such as the T/C Contender) presents a serious risk of pierced or blown primers if the thin-cupped small pistol primers are substituted for the correct rifle primer.

[02Fatboy]

Thanks for the info.

[anachronism]

"NO"

Small pistol primers ara NOT designed for rifle chamber pressures of 55,000 psi!!!

​Sierra Exterior Ballistics

Reloading Basics

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/primer.cfm

SMALL PRIMERS Small Pistol

Used with most of the smaller handgun cartridges, from the .357 Magnum down to the .25 ACP, when faster burning, easy to ignite powders are being loaded. Small pistol primers, either standard or magnum, must not be used for rifle cartridges. The higher operating pressures common to these cartridges (even when used in a pistol, such as the T/C Contender) presents a serious risk of pierced or blown primers if the thin-cupped small pistol primers are substituted for the correct rifle primer.

I agree. You cannot even use any primer marked as a "small rifle" primer in an AR15, so pistol primers are out of the question.

[RiggerJJ]

All I use in ar15s and ar10s are "standard" rifle primers. No problems experienced...

Using magnum pistol primers in rifles? Nope.

jj

Edited April 10, 2014 by RiggerJJ

[DrawandDuck]

I agree. You cannot even use any primer marked as a "small rifle" primer in an AR15, so pistol primers are out of the question.

??????? Everyone I know uses small rifle primers in AR's.......granted I have only been using them for 8 years (90,000 rounds) but have NEVER had any issues with them.

[Steve RA]

No !!!

[808win]

CCI specifically manufactures and sells CCI No, 41 "military" rifle primers for use with "military-style semi-automatic rifles".

Here's what they say on their website: http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

Curious if anyone has experienced a AR-15 "slam-fire" with properly reloaded ammunition used in a properly functioning/maintained rifle when using "standard" small rifle primers?

[RDA]

??????? Everyone I know uses small rifle primers in AR's.......granted I have only been using them for 8 years (90,000 rounds) but have NEVER had any issues with them.

Only 90,000 round with zero issues? Were these just some test loads?

/sarcasm

Respect, that is a lot of rounds.

[JeffJ99]

So, which primers are you supposed to use if not small rifle?

[rtp]

"NO"

Small pistol primers ara NOT designed for rifle chamber pressures of 55,000 psi!!!

​Sierra Exterior Ballistics

Reloading Basics

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/primer.cfm

SMALL PRIMERS Small Pistol

Used with most of the smaller handgun cartridges, from the .357 Magnum down to the .25 ACP, when faster burning, easy to ignite powders are being loaded. Small pistol primers, either standard or magnum, must not be used for rifle cartridges. The higher operating pressures common to these cartridges (even when used in a pistol, such as the T/C Contender) presents a serious risk of pierced or blown primers if the thin-cupped small pistol primers are substituted for the correct rifle primer.

I agree. You cannot even use any primer marked as a "small rifle" primer in an AR15, so pistol primers are out of the question.

This opens a can of worms.

Small rifle magnums are recommended in some recipes with ball powders, especially in changing/varied weather conditions.

Meanwhile, small rifle magnums are also recommended in some cases for AR or semi-autos with a free floating firing pin, to avoid potential for 'slam fires,' by virtue of their thicker/stronger cups/harder to ignite.

Remington 6 1/2s are inappropriate for AR usage, even by the mfgr.

The debate comes in around WSR, some Federals, Wolfs and Tulas for the most part.

I look at it this way - with the exception of 8208XBR, all I use in rifle is ball powder. A magnum primer may increase velocity/pressure a bit, but I'm also not using max or above-max loads, so my personal preference is for small rifle magnums...having said that, I've also got some Tula non-magnum (KVM223) which I'm going to shoot through as well until/if such a time presents itself as it being a real and actual problem. Some Rem 6 1/2s I ignorantly picked up previously are going to become small pistol..just not intended for .223 pressures.

None of there above changes the answer about using pistol primers in a rifle - pretty much no. There may be some few exceptions for some truly low pressure rifle calibers (for example, which the Rem 6 1/2s are intended for), but basically no. I might use some normal small rifle in a pistol if I must, but not the other way around.

Edited April 11, 2014 by rtp

[bigedp51]

CCI specifically manufactures and sells CCI No, 41 "military" rifle primers for use with "military-style semi-automatic rifles".

Here's what they say on their website: http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

Curious if anyone has experienced a AR-15 "slam-fire" with properly reloaded ammunition used in a properly functioning/maintained rifle when using "standard" small rifle primers?

Remington ran Lake City Army Ammunition plant from 1941 till 1985 and NEVER loaded CCI "Military Type Primers" and Remington used their 7 1/2 and 9 1/2 primers at Lake City. Winchester ran Lake City from 1985 till 2001 and did not use CCI primers either.

The M16 was modified early in its development with a lighter firing pin, this was because if you removed the magazine and single loaded a round in the chamber there was a small percentage of slam fires when the bolt slammed home. With the magazine in place it reduced the bolt velocity as it fed a cartridge into the chamber. With the lighter firing pin and single loading the M16 rifle without the magazine the chance of a slamfire was reduced to 1 in 10 million chance of a slam fire.

Above data is from the book below.

The main reason for slam fires is improperly reloaded ammunition and Military specifications call for the primer to be .008 below the the base of the case. Again Remington was running Lake City during the M16 rifles development and testing phase. And Remington was in charge of 5.56 ammunition testing and production. Bottom line the primer was not changed or redesigned and only the firing pin was lightened to prevent slam fires on the M16 rifle.

As long as you use primers with a cup thickness of .025 you will not have a problem with your AR15 rifle. And remember this, many ammunition companies load contract 5.56 ammunition for the military and they do NOT use CCI "Military Primers". The only difference with the CCI military primers is the anvil is shorter and requires higher than "normal" force to set off the primer.

Now guess what primers Remington used to light off Winchester ball powders loaded at Lake city and why they are called baby flame throwers.

Edited April 11, 2014 by bigedp51

[Dr. Phil]

I think the O.P. asked about using "small pistol magnum" primers which (turned out) was asking about an AR15, in place of small rifle primers, correct?

No, you should not use pistol (any) primers (any) in rifle (any) loads. There. I stayed on topic...

Now, I have a new grandson, so...

[808win]

bigedp51, thanks for the info and pictures. I especially liked the pictures of the primers being fired. As you probably know, ATK, the owner of the CCI and Federal, has operated the Lake City Ammunition Plant for the past 12 years or so. Do you know what primers they've been using in the production of 5.56 and 7.62 ammunition? Thanks.

Edited April 12, 2014 by 808win

[02Fatboy]

Thanks for the info.

[02Fatboy]

I think the O.P. asked about using "small pistol magnum" primers which (turned out) was asking about an AR15, in place of small rifle primers, correct?

No, you should not use pistol (any) primers (any) in rifle (any) loads. There. I stayed on topic...

Now, I have a new grandson, so...

Good luck with the new guns I mean grandson