Popper requires multiple hits before falling: REF or not? Split from a

[frag316]

--snip--

This is just my theory on things, but if the USPSA rulebook is specifying X, Y, and Z procedure and recommends a particular caliber at a particular power factor, then they should be the ones supplying the ammo, especially for area matches and nat's.

This would be way expensive, but Barnes makes solid copper bullets. Then probably even more expensive than that are the cintered metal bullets. I saw a well know shooter put on a shooting exhibition at an indoor range in 2007. He was shooting on steel plates using that cintered ammo. The static plates reacted differently.

The folks putting on the match are responsible for the calibration ammo. The specifications are for a sub-minor round. There's no reason for USPSA to provide that ammo, because they give some guidelines and expect MDs to execute. Do you really think we need to have USPSA HQ get involved to that level? Why?

And it's "sintered," not "cintered." And, of course sintered bullets are going to affect plates differently--for every caliber, the bullet weight is significantly lighter than what most people shoot when using solid-core bullets. For a 9mm, the most common bullet weight is 100, which is 15-25% lighter than the most popular bullet weights in that caliber.

[Bill Filiaga]

I hate reshoots, seems the wrong people at the wrong time get them.

level 1 matches sometimes test our integrity ...... especially for some of us better shooters......hmmmmm I guess bragging rights trump. And if a beer is at stake weeeellllllllll,,, gaming time!!

Anyway, I always try to knuckle test every popper I reset if it looks or feels wrong.....

I have never been to a level 1 match where the poppers were calibrated before or during, as to the rule book.....

I agree, lets leave the rules alone for the next 10 years!!!

I'll suck up infrequent aggravation, the fun factor is what matters and keeps me coming back for more......

[JAFO]

Serious question...

has anybody here actually seen a pre-match calibration procedure at a local club level match?

have you seen an MD/RM actually shoot a calibration round at a balky popper at a local club level match?

I ask that because I have not seen either happen at the local club match level. The most sophisticated thing that happened was the "acting" MD came over, knocked on the popper with his knuckles and goes "Yeah, that feels heavy. RESHOOT!" With me, IIRC, that happened twice. Two different clubs.

Yes. My previous club did it. The MD had chrono'd calibration ammo and he would calibrate before the match and shoot the popper if a shooter asked for a calibration (or hand the calibration gun/ammo over to the club RO on the stage to do it).

More commonly, steel is shot pre-match with the nearest available 9mm, to be sure it functions. Then shooters generally knuckle-test them as they are reset, pointing out something that feels heavy to the RO for examination.

Regardless, I still stand behind the idea that it's the shooter's responsibility, not the RO's. If it won't go down, call for a calibration (however they do it locally) and either move on or stop yourself there if you're confident it's not set right. If you shoot it down, you own it.

Edited April 8, 2014 by JAFO

[motosapiens]

Regardless, I still stand behind the idea that it's the shooter's responsibility, not the RO's. If it won't go down, call for a calibration (however they do it locally) and either move on or stop yourself there if you're confident it's not set right. If you shoot it down, you own it.

I agree..... unless it's determined that the equipment is broken, or set up incorrectly, and it must be fixed or replaced or correctly set for the match to continue.

[MarkCO]

Serious question...

has anybody here actually seen a pre-match calibration procedure at a local club level match?

have you seen an MD/RM actually shoot a calibration round at a balky popper at a local club level match?

I ask that because I have not seen either happen at the local club match level. The most sophisticated thing that happened was the "acting" MD came over, knocked on the popper with his knuckles and goes "Yeah, that feels heavy. RESHOOT!" With me, IIRC, that happened twice. Two different clubs.

Yes, I take 1 magazine (23 rounds) of 122PF 9mm to all of the matches I run (since I shoot about 140 PF ammo). Yes, I shoot them on a call for calibration, and I have never had to issue a reshoot, only misses. Sometimes squads will take it upon themselves to "correct" the problem and last year, I chewed out an "RO" for giving a reshoot to a buddy who I will guarantee was shooting sub-minor. Neither has been back since.

Just follow the rulebook folks, it is not that hard! If a few of you would put the same effort into dryfire as you have to your arguments on this thread, I am certain your match scores would improve!

[motosapiens]

Just follow the rulebook folks, it is not that hard! If a few of you would put the same effort into dryfire as you have to your arguments on this thread, I am certain your match scores would improve!

The rulebook allows you (perhaps requires you) to give a reshoot for failed range equipment or a significantly altered stage presentation.

[Chills1994]

--snip--

This is just my theory on things, but if the USPSA rulebook is specifying X, Y, and Z procedure and recommends a particular caliber at a particular power factor, then they should be the ones supplying the ammo, especially for area matches and nat's.

This would be way expensive, but Barnes makes solid copper bullets. Then probably even more expensive than that are the cintered metal bullets. I saw a well know shooter put on a shooting exhibition at an indoor range in 2007. He was shooting on steel plates using that cintered ammo. The static plates reacted differently.

The folks putting on the match are responsible for the calibration ammo. The specifications are for a sub-minor round. There's no reason for USPSA to provide that ammo, because they give some guidelines and expect MDs to execute. Do you really think we need to have USPSA HQ get involved to that level? Why?

And it's "sintered," not "cintered." And, of course sintered bullets are going to affect plates differently--for every caliber, the bullet weight is significantly lighter than what most people shoot when using solid-core bullets. For a 9mm, the most common bullet weight is 100, which is 15-25% lighter than the most popular bullet weights in that caliber.

Does "sintered" ammo still make minor PF regardless of weight? Edited April 9, 2014 by Chills1994

[frag316]

I don't know if it does or not. Companies sell it as components to reload, too.

[motosapiens]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.

So I have a hypothetical question.... What if you were at a match, and you were shooting, and you shot several shots at a popper, and it finally went down, and you didn't say anything, but the RO examined the popper and decided there was a range equipment problem and offered you a reshoot.... What would you do? Would you reshoot? or would you stand on your principles and your understanding of the rules and educate the RO that no reshoot was allowed?

It's kinda funny that last week this exact situation came about in our local match. I was the first shooter, and the popper was clearly f$-ed, but went down after 5 shots or so in 1 second. I said under the rules I probably wasn't entitled to a reshoot, but after the situation was rectified, I took it. We had hellacious wind that day, btw, so we ended up converting the poppers in 2 bays to static steel and just calling the hits because they would blow over every 15 seconds unless set hard enough that major rounds wouldn't reliably take them down.

But anyway, I'm curious Sarge, I know you wouldn't ask for a reshoot or calibration or whatever if the popper finally fell, but what would you do if the RO offered a reshoot when an apparent problem was recognized and then fixed? Just curious. hypothetically ya know....

[Yardbird]

I believe that a reshoot can only be "offered" for RO interference. If it's REF then it's either a mandatory reshoot or no reshoot at all.

[Sarge]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.

So I have a hypothetical question.... What if you were at a match, and you were shooting, and you shot several shots at a popper, and it finally went down, and you didn't say anything, but the RO examined the popper and decided there was a range equipment problem and offered you a reshoot.... What would you do? Would you reshoot? or would you stand on your principles and your understanding of the rules and educate the RO that no reshoot was allowed?

It's kinda funny that last week this exact situation came about in our local match. I was the first shooter, and the popper was clearly f$-ed, but went down after 5 shots or so in 1 second. I said under the rules I probably wasn't entitled to a reshoot, but after the situation was rectified, I took it. We had hellacious wind that day, btw, so we ended up converting the poppers in 2 bays to static steel and just calling the hits because they would blow over every 15 seconds unless set hard enough that major rounds wouldn't reliably take them down.

But anyway, I'm curious Sarge, I know you wouldn't ask for a reshoot or calibration or whatever if the popper finally fell, but what would you do if the RO offered a reshoot when an apparent problem was recognized and then fixed? Just curious. hypothetically ya know....

You know, when this thread originally started it was not exactly made clear that something was wrong with the popper. Only that it took a lot to make it go down. I won't shoot a popper more than a few times. If I get good hits on more than one shot I will leave it and call for calibration. If the RO checks it before he shoots it and finds that it is not set right or it is somehow broken he is going to make me reshoot it. Or if I shot it 5 times for some reason and it finally fell and the RO says damn the weld is broken and the pin is binding up or whatever he has to make the determination that I did not cause the damage then he will MAKE me reshoot it. Reshoots can not be offered except for RO interference.

I know you will probably doubt me but I would tell an RO that asks me if I want a reshoot that he can not offer me a reshoot for this he can only require me to reshoot it or not. No I would not take a reshoot if he asked me. I would explain the rules to him and if he does not know what to do then I would ask for the MD/RM.

As a matter of fact we had more than a few reshoots on the stages with poppers at last weeks battle in the blue grass. They were all forward falling poppers which are a total pain in the ass. IF THEY ARE SET RIGHT they will fall every time they are hit solid, virtually without fail. Once they were disturbed by the shot they were certain to fall when the RM shot them so typically he checked it and asked who set it and had them explain what they did and generally he determined they were not set properly and ordered a reshoot. He would then set it properly and shoot it to confirm that if set right it would fall. But he never looked at a shooter and asked if he would like a reshoot.

Bottom line, if I shot a popper and eventually got it to fall and it was determined the popper was broken or somehow not operating as designed, other than being set too heavy then yes I would expect to be ordered to reshoot it.

I have a few advantages where we shoot our local matches. One is that I am the MD at my match and I know the rules and we play by the rules. Second, everybody I shoot with knows the rules and we all enforce them equally across the board. Damn near all of us could look at a popper and instantly determine a reshoot is required if it is not set right. We rarely have something happen in a match that ends up being poorly handled initially. Just too many of us are RO's or CRO's locally.

[motosapiens]

You know, when this thread originally started it was not exactly made clear that something was wrong with the popper. Only that it took a lot to make it go down.

>>I thought I made that pretty clear several times, but maybe you had lost interest by then.

As a matter of fact we had more than a few reshoots on the stages with poppers at last weeks battle in the blue grass. They were all forward falling poppers which are a total pain in the ass. IF THEY ARE SET RIGHT they will fall every time they are hit solid, virtually without fail. Once they were disturbed by the shot they were certain to fall when the RM shot them so typically he checked it and asked who set it and had them explain what they did and generally he determined they were not set properly and ordered a reshoot.

Hmm, that is interesting, I seem to recall that mis-set forward-falling poppers were one of the exact examples that I mentioned as being a possible exception in my responses to your earlier posts. Perhaps I was unclear and should have been more specific, and said it even more times.

Posted by motosapiens in post #29

Please note, I am not talking about 99% of all popper issues, but about the 1% where something really is wrong, or broken, or not reset correctly or DRASTICALLY out of adjustment at the beginning of a local match. It's really a separate issue from calibration.

posted by motosapiens in post #64

When I have seen this problem (about 3 occasions), it has been due to one of 2 things:

1. forward falling popper that was set incorrectly.

2. first squad at a local match when popper was set up incorrectly and never tested.

posted by motosapiens in post #78

We're not talking about the shooter's options imho. It is pretty clear what the shooter's options are. We're talking about the RO/RM's options in occasional exceptional situations, like when a forward falling popper is set incorrectly, or some other drastic setup problem.

posted by motosapiens in post #82

First sqad of the day, Shooter hits popper several times in the scoring zone, it finally falls. On reset, CRO notices that the popper is backwards. It's a forward faller, but it was setup wrong. Says 'crap', turns popper around the correct way, tells competitor 'sucks to be you, but vee haff rules. Ordnung muss sein.' Competitor says "wtf, you just changed the stage, will you please call the RM."?

So do you think the RM of the match in question acted improperly and contravened the rules by calling for a reshoot when he thought it was warranted by an equipment problem? Or do you agree with me now that you've had time to think about it?

Edited April 20, 2014 by motosapiens

[rvb]

C1.7 In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test...

-rvb

[Sarge]

You know, when this thread originally started it was not exactly made clear that something was wrong with the popper. Only that it took a lot to make it go down.

>>I thought I made that pretty clear several times, but maybe you had lost interest by then.

As a matter of fact we had more than a few reshoots on the stages with poppers at last weeks battle in the blue grass. They were all forward falling poppers which are a total pain in the ass. IF THEY ARE SET RIGHT they will fall every time they are hit solid, virtually without fail. Once they were disturbed by the shot they were certain to fall when the RM shot them so typically he checked it and asked who set it and had them explain what they did and generally he determined they were not set properly and ordered a reshoot.

Hmm, that is interesting, I seem to recall that mis-set forward-falling poppers were one of the exact examples that I mentioned as being a possible exception in my responses to your earlier posts. Perhaps I was unclear and should have been more specific, and said it even more times.

Posted by motosapiens in post #29

Please note, I am not talking about 99% of all popper issues, but about the 1% where something really is wrong, or broken, or not reset correctly or DRASTICALLY out of adjustment at the beginning of a local match. It's really a separate issue from calibration.

posted by motosapiens in post #64

When I have seen this problem (about 3 occasions), it has been due to one of 2 things:

1. forward falling popper that was set incorrectly.

2. first squad at a local match when popper was set up incorrectly and never tested.

posted by motosapiens in post #78

We're not talking about the shooter's options imho. It is pretty clear what the shooter's options are. We're talking about the RO/RM's options in occasional exceptional situations, like when a forward falling popper is set incorrectly, or some other drastic setup problem.

posted by motosapiens in post #82

First sqad of the day, Shooter hits popper several times in the scoring zone, it finally falls. On reset, CRO notices that the popper is backwards. It's a forward faller, but it was setup wrong. Says 'crap', turns popper around the correct way, tells competitor 'sucks to be you, but vee haff rules. Ordnung muss sein.' Competitor says "wtf, you just changed the stage, will you please call the RM."?

So do you think the RM of the match in question acted improperly and contravened the rules by calling for a reshoot when he thought it was warranted by an equipment problem? Or do you agree with me now that you've had time to think about it?

I made post 6 in the thread. Up to that point all that was mentioned was the popper was obviously set too heavy. Sorry a heavy popper is different than a popper that is not mechanically set up right.

[whitedog]

Ok.....so I guess it's not settled.

People have used a lot of words and time justifying not following the rules as written.

It's quite educational actually. I'm realizing I quite like the way Sarge runs our shoots.

[Nik Habicht]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.

So I have a hypothetical question.... What if you were at a match, and you were shooting, and you shot several shots at a popper, and it finally went down, and you didn't say anything, but the RO examined the popper and decided there was a range equipment problem and offered you a reshoot.... What would you do? Would you reshoot? or would you stand on your principles and your understanding of the rules and educate the RO that no reshoot was allowed?

It's kinda funny that last week this exact situation came about in our local match. I was the first shooter, and the popper was clearly f$-ed, but went down after 5 shots or so in 1 second. I said under the rules I probably wasn't entitled to a reshoot, but after the situation was rectified, I took it. We had hellacious wind that day, btw, so we ended up converting the poppers in 2 bays to static steel and just calling the hits because they would blow over every 15 seconds unless set hard enough that major rounds wouldn't reliably take them down.

But anyway, I'm curious Sarge, I know you wouldn't ask for a reshoot or calibration or whatever if the popper finally fell, but what would you do if the RO offered a reshoot when an apparent problem was recognized and then fixed? Just curious. hypothetically ya know....

Simple answer -- ask for the CRO or RM to educate the match staff......

[Nik Habicht]

I believe that a reshoot can only be "offered" for RO interference. If it's REF then it's either a mandatory reshoot or no reshoot at all.

Bingo! Shooter generally doesn't get a choice.....

[Nik Habicht]

C1.7 In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test...

-rvb

Correct -- but that presumes that the competitor did not shoot the popper down....

[motosapiens]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.

So I have a hypothetical question.... What if you were at a match, and you were shooting, and you shot several shots at a popper, and it finally went down, and you didn't say anything, but the RO examined the popper and decided there was a range equipment problem and offered you a reshoot.... What would you do? Would you reshoot? or would you stand on your principles and your understanding of the rules and educate the RO that no reshoot was allowed?

It's kinda funny that last week this exact situation came about in our local match. I was the first shooter, and the popper was clearly f$-ed, but went down after 5 shots or so in 1 second. I said under the rules I probably wasn't entitled to a reshoot, but after the situation was rectified, I took it. We had hellacious wind that day, btw, so we ended up converting the poppers in 2 bays to static steel and just calling the hits because they would blow over every 15 seconds unless set hard enough that major rounds wouldn't reliably take them down.

But anyway, I'm curious Sarge, I know you wouldn't ask for a reshoot or calibration or whatever if the popper finally fell, but what would you do if the RO offered a reshoot when an apparent problem was recognized and then fixed? Just curious. hypothetically ya know....

Simple answer -- ask for the CRO or RM to educate the match staff......

What if at this hypothetical match the CRO and RM agreed that there was a problem with the popper even tho it went down, and ordered a re-shoot? I'm just hypothetically curious.... I don't really know much about the situation sarge is describing at Battle in the Bluegrass where it sounds like exactly the situation I was describing happened multiple times.......

[Chills1994]

Ok.....so I guess it's not settled.

People have used a lot of words and time justifying not following the rules as written.

It's quite educational actually. I'm realizing I quite like the way Sarge runs our shoots.

In my opinion, it's a poopy rule/procedure.

[Jaxshooter]

I would not accept a reshoot.

If we are going to play a game that has a rule book then use it. I don't care what Level the match is. If not throw out the rules completely and have an outlaw match. Just let all of the shooters know that there are no rules and the rules will be made up as you shoot.

[Nik Habicht]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.

So I have a hypothetical question.... What if you were at a match, and you were shooting, and you shot several shots at a popper, and it finally went down, and you didn't say anything, but the RO examined the popper and decided there was a range equipment problem and offered you a reshoot.... What would you do? Would you reshoot? or would you stand on your principles and your understanding of the rules and educate the RO that no reshoot was allowed?

It's kinda funny that last week this exact situation came about in our local match. I was the first shooter, and the popper was clearly f$-ed, but went down after 5 shots or so in 1 second. I said under the rules I probably wasn't entitled to a reshoot, but after the situation was rectified, I took it. We had hellacious wind that day, btw, so we ended up converting the poppers in 2 bays to static steel and just calling the hits because they would blow over every 15 seconds unless set hard enough that major rounds wouldn't reliably take them down.

But anyway, I'm curious Sarge, I know you wouldn't ask for a reshoot or calibration or whatever if the popper finally fell, but what would you do if the RO offered a reshoot when an apparent problem was recognized and then fixed? Just curious. hypothetically ya know....

Simple answer -- ask for the CRO or RM to educate the match staff......

What if at this hypothetical match the CRO and RM agreed that there was a problem with the popper even tho it went down, and ordered a re-shoot? I'm just hypothetically curious.... I don't really know much about the situation sarge is describing at Battle in the Bluegrass where it sounds like exactly the situation I was describing happened multiple times.......

Doesn't sound like that to me......

Sounds like if competitors didn't knock the popper down, and called for the RM, the RM did his due diligence by investigating the current condition of the popper before calibrating it, and acting accordingly.....

If the popper was shot down, there's no recourse for that....

[JAFO]

If the popper was shot down with multiple shots and the RO can definitively determine it is broken, it's a REF reshoot. If I know the shooter's hits were good and the popper appears to be set light enough upon reset, but it is determined that it was set incorrectly prior to the shooter's run, I would support a REF reshoot. But if the assumption is that it was just set too heavy, but otherwise correctly, the shooter's run stands.

Really, in all of these hypothetical cases, the shooter should be moving on with the run (or stopping themselves) once he/she realizes that good hits aren't knocking it over. Then they call for a calibration. At that point, the RO can examine the popper to see if it's broken or set incorrectly, and it can be shot to determine if it's too heavy. All of those reshoot reasons you're looking for are already in the rules once the shooter calls for calibration.

[Thomas H]

Really, in all of these hypothetical cases, the shooter should be moving on with the run (or stopping themselves) once he/she realizes that good hits aren't knocking it over. Then they call for a calibration. At that point, the RO can examine the popper to see if it's broken or set incorrectly, and it can be shot to determine if it's too heavy. All of those reshoot reasons you're looking for are already in the rules once the shooter calls for calibration.

They had better not stop themselves---if the calibration shot makes the popper fall, the stage will be scored as shot.

Even if a popper isn't falling and you are going to call for a calibration, you should always finish the stage first.

I'm still curious about under what circumstances we can require a reshoot for a popper that has been shot down. People are saying "obviously set wrong" or "broken" or things like that---how do you know it was set wrong if it is no longer set because it was shot down? How do you know it was broken before the competitor shot it down?

I don't have a problem with requiring a reshoot for range equipment failure---if I see a piece of range equipment that is broken, fallen, or set improperly during the course of fire, I'll call stop, REF, reshoot. But if I don't have any evidence of it other than a popper was difficult to shoot down, BUT it got shot down---how do you justify a reshoot?

Just because I have to fix the popper afterward doesn't mean it was an issue before. (After all, it wasn't an issue when we started, so obviously it changed over time. How do I know when it changed to actual REF? The popper fell, didn't it?)

Again: if the popper fell, how do you know it was set incorrectly? And how do you know that the "broken" aspect of the popper occurred prior to the last shooter? It fell.

[Chills1994]

Because there were X many threads showing on the adjustment bolt before a squad showed up and now there are only Y threads showing on the bolt???

EDIT: it probably is just me, but I see a problem with on stage CRO's/RO's making any changes to the popper(s) without calling for the RM/MD to do yet another calibration shot before allowing the match attendees to shoot that stage. IIRC, that part is left out of the rulebook.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Chills1994