10.5.16 and "Facing Uprange"

[ac4wordplay]

IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway.

I've had RMIs interpret it similarly - "the plane of the mag well" (or something similar) - but it always bothered me that I couldn't find any rule to support that.

[Racer377]

With that ruling, a competitor using a holster with a slight rearward cant can draw (have access to the trigger guard) as soon they break the definition of "facing up range" (by turning the head slightly) without risk of DQ.

Just like they would anywhere else on the stage, so long as the muzzle doesn't break the 180. E.g. on stage like this (at 0:46)

http://youtu.be/A5GcxKcEwU8?t=43s

[ac4wordplay]

With that ruling, a competitor using a holster with a slight rearward cant can draw (have access to the trigger guard) as soon they break the definition of "facing up range" (by turning the head slightly) without risk of DQ.

Just like they would anywhere else on the stage, so long as the muzzle doesn't break the 180. E.g. on stage like this (at 0:46)

http://youtu.be/A5GcxKcEwU8?t=43s

My interest is only clarification and consistent/universal application. I'm not arguing any side. I recognize Amidon's opinion is contrary to what several RMI and NROI RM have been applying.

Edited March 26, 2014 by ac4wordplay

[Racer377]

I have to wonder how "muzzle line" came to be interpreted as a line that does not reference or even come close to the muzzle? or why we would be concerned with the "muzzle line" as a line from "bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight" crossing 90 from the median intercept in one context and the actual muzzle line indicated by muzzle direction in every other.

My best guess is a prolonged game of "telephone"

But it seems to be clear now.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Racer377

[StraightUp_OG]

Clear as mud...

[rvb]

It seems we are making something simple very hard. If the gun is drawn (access to trigger), the muzzle must be down range (w/in the boundaries of the 180, incl up/down as well as left/right), except that you have a "buffer" of a 3 foot radius while drawing. That's what the rules say, right?

I see nothing in the rules about hips, grip/sight/muzzle planes, etc. Put me on an arb committee and that's all I can go by.

ref:
Apx A3 (definition of drawn)
10.5.2 (180 plane)
10.5.6 (3-foot radius while drawing)

what the nroi ruling (incl the clarification/verification Rob obtained) says is the "holster's muzzle" has to be w/in the boundaries of the 180... which is fine for a muzzle-fwd cant open/lim rig, but for anything w/ even a slight muzzle rear cant is, well... impossible. hense the purpose of 10.5.6.

Frankly, the nroi ruling just complicates it. 10.5.6 says keep it w/in 3 feet of your feet if drawing, else comply w/ the 180. sure seems simple. now I have to worry about "holster muzzle lines..."

Just don't draw while "facing uprage" (per the definition).

(ps. the definition of which is screwed up in the book, it should be feet & face 180* from the backstop, shoulders parallel... right? And the definition of facing downrange is just aweful)

-rvb

Edited March 26, 2014 by rvb

[Racer377]

It seems we are making something simple very hard. If the gun is drawn (access to trigger), the muzzle must be down range (w/in the boundaries of the 180, incl up/down as well as left/right), except that you have a "buffer" of 3 a foot radius while drawing. That's what the rules say, right?

I see nothing in the rules about hips, grip/sight/muzzle planes, etc. Put me on an arb committee and that's all I can go by.

ref:

Apx A3 (definition of drawn)

10.5.2 (180 plane)

10.5.6 (3-foot radius while drawing)

what the nroi ruling (incl the clarification/verification Rob obtained) says the "holster's muzzle" has to be w/in the boundaries of the 180... which is fine for a muzzle-fwd cant open/lim rig, but for anything w/ even a slight muzzle rear cant is, well... impossible. hense the purpose of 10.5.6.

Frankly, the nroi ruling just complicates it. 10.5.6 says keep it w/in 3 feet of your feet if drawing, else comply w/ the 180. sure seems simple. now I have to worry about "holster muzzle lines..."

-rvb

Seems to me this makes it easier. In the small time between the trigger becoming accessible - 'drawn,' and the muzzle itself becoming visible (upon which to make a 10.5.2 call), the holster's muzzle line controls. Once the muzzle itself clears kydex and is visible, 10.5.2 takes over.

10.5.6 grants a safe harbor of 3 ft while facing downrange, which is defined as the exact opposite of facing uprange. My reading would be if you aren't facing exactly down range, there is no 3ft radius safe harbor. Break 180, you're done.

[ac4wordplay]

It seems we are making something simple very hard. If the gun is drawn (access to trigger), the muzzle must be down range (w/in the boundaries of the 180, incl up/down as well as left/right), except that you have a "buffer" of 3 a foot radius while drawing. That's what the rules say, right?

I see nothing in the rules about hips, grip/sight/muzzle planes, etc. Put me on an arb committee and that's all I can go by.

ref:

Apx A3 (definition of drawn)

10.5.2 (180 plane)

10.5.6 (3-foot radius while drawing)

what the nroi ruling (incl the clarification/verification Rob obtained) says the "holster's muzzle" has to be w/in the boundaries of the 180... which is fine for a muzzle-fwd cant open/lim rig, but for anything w/ even a slight muzzle rear cant is, well... impossible. hense the purpose of 10.5.6.

Frankly, the nroi ruling just complicates it. 10.5.6 says keep it w/in 3 feet of your feet if drawing, else comply w/ the 180. sure seems simple. now I have to worry about "holster muzzle lines..."

-rvb

Be very careful:

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to

point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while

drawing or re-holstering.

Facing Down Range........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

Facing Uprange................Face and feet pointing directly (90°) away from the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop.

[rvb]

I know, that's why above I said the definitions are screwed up. So if I have a holster w, oh 5 degrees of muzzle-rearward can't, it is IMPOSSIBLE to draw w/o being DQd unless I am exactly opposite of facing uprage. If I'm standing at a 45* angle, I get DQd. That's what the rules say. I argued against that change, but must have been the minority....

by continually twiddling with the rules, they've gotten farther and farther from reality, imo.

-rvb

Edited March 26, 2014 by rvb

[ummm]

4 pages of reading and I don't know what's legal

So....

I'm facing perfectly uprange (call it 0 degrees), holstered, wrists above shoulders. At the start signal, I can immediately have as full a grip as I can get, provided there continues to be no trigger access. I can potentially, depending on my equipment, even start to withdraw the pistol from the holster, I just can't have trigger access.

I rotate my hips, which rotates my holster.

Once my holster is facing 90 degrees or more, I can have access to the trigger, and start shooting (straight ahead, 90 degrees, or more downrange).

Is that correct?

[Racer377]

4 pages of reading and I don't know what's legal

So....

I'm facing perfectly uprange (call it 0 degrees), holstered, wrists above shoulders. At the start signal, I can immediately have as full a grip as I can get, provided there continues to be no trigger access. I can potentially, depending on my equipment, even start to withdraw the pistol from the holster, I just can't have trigger access.

I rotate my hips, which rotates my holster.

Once my holster is facing 90 degrees or more, I can have access to the trigger, and start shooting (straight ahead, 90 degrees, or more downrange).

Is that correct?

Depends.

If you're rocking one of those race holsters at the appendix position with an aggressive rearward cant (butt angled rearward, muzzle pointing in front of you as it's holstered), then 90 degrees won't be enough to get the muzzle line past the 180.

[JAFO]

That's what I've always thought, but this whole "muzzle line of the holster" almost seems to open the possibility of being able to have access to the trigger in a rearward canted holster while the body is uprange of the 90 degree intercept, as long as the muzzle continues to be pointed downrange. Supposedly, once you were out of the "facing uprange" position, you could draw the gun (maintaining the rearward cant), extend the gun rearward (keeping the muzzle pointed downrange), and pivot your body around to meet up with the gun. The motion would be similar to someone moving uprange during a COF, but keeping the muzzle downrange by pointing the gun behind them. The problem is that most people start bringing the gun up to the support hand as soon as they clear the holster, which brings the gun's muzzle past the 90 degree intercept, regardless of where the holster's muzzle line may be.

[motosapiens]

Once my holster is facing 90 degrees or more, I can have access to the trigger, and start shooting (straight ahead, 90 degrees, or more downrange).

Is that correct?

that's how I call it. Honestly, in 3 major matches, the only times I've called it have been blatantly obvious, like the actual barrel of the gun being up and pointing 135degrees away from the back berm. Even when I was specifically looking for it, I couldn't see well enough to call anything that was close to 90 degrees with gun just starting to come up enough so the trigger was uncovered. I can clearly see when the barrel of the gun is pointed uprange. the other stuff, not so much.

[Nik Habicht]

To be fair you didn't email an instructor. I agree that the instructors would have a different take than DNROI on the subject. Of course now that DNROI has said it, well, it becomes the answer at least until they can get together and hash it out.

Pretty sure that DNROI is in fact an instructor Kevin.....

....and it's not an official answer until he publishes it as an interpretation....

[Nik Habicht]

See? Told ya so. Some ROs will do what they want, regardless of the rules.

Really? 10.5.2 still suggests that if you break the 180 with the muzzle, it's a DQ......

So even if 10.5.16 comes off the table, 10.5.2 is still in play.

Rather than accuse ROs of ignoring the rule book, why not consider getting the education by attending an RO class?

[Sarge]

To be fair you didn't email an instructor. I agree that the instructors would have a different take than DNROI on the subject. Of course now that DNROI has said it, well, it becomes the answer at least until they can get together and hash it out.

Pretty sure that DNROI is in fact an instructor Kevin.....

....and it's not an official answer until he publishes it as an interpretation....

I think you know what I meant. I have been chatting with a few folks and he seems to be the only one of the opinion stated. RMI Corps...

[Sarge]

And to all the guys talking about exposing or having access to the trigger. The rule does not say that. The rule says, "access to any

portion of the interior of the trigger guard."

All you have to see is the inside of the back part of the trigger guard to call it a draw. If I see a gun drawn uprange I will DQ the shooter. They are more than welcome to take it to arb.

All this "DNROI Opinion" is going to accomplish is RO's letting people get away with drawing the gun on the wrong side of the 180 and putting other shooter's safety in jeopardy. Unfortunately, there are probably shooters in their basement right now practicing getting the gun out of the holster way to early.

[Racer377]

See? Told ya so. Some ROs will do what they want, regardless of the rules.

Really? 10.5.2 still suggests that if you break the 180 with the muzzle, it's a DQ......

So even if 10.5.16 comes off the table, 10.5.2 is still in play.

Rather than accuse ROs of ignoring the rule book, why not consider getting the education by attending an RO class?

The problem is some folks seem to think NOT breaking the 180 is a DQ-able offense, because of some odd definition of "muzzle line" that doesn't reference the muzzle and "what we all know" facing uprange means instead of the rulebook definition and hips and shoulders and whatever other stuff has been thrown in in place of what seems to me perfectly comprehensible official rulings.

[Racer377]

And to all the guys talking about exposing or having access to the trigger. The rule does not say that. The rule says, "access to any

portion of the interior of the trigger guard."

All you have to see is the inside of the back part of the trigger guard to call it a draw. If I see a gun drawn uprange I will DQ the shooter. They are more than welcome to take it to arb.

All this "DNROI Opinion" is going to accomplish is RO's letting people get away with drawing the gun on the wrong side of the 180 and putting other shooter's safety in jeopardy. Unfortunately, there are probably shooters in their basement right now practicing getting the gun out of the holster way to early.

Are you going to use the rule book definition of "facing uprange" or your own?

[Nik Habicht]

See? Told ya so. Some ROs will do what they want, regardless of the rules.

Really? 10.5.2 still suggests that if you break the 180 with the muzzle, it's a DQ......

So even if 10.5.16 comes off the table, 10.5.2 is still in play.

Rather than accuse ROs of ignoring the rule book, why not consider getting the education by attending an RO class?

The problem is some folks seem to think NOT breaking the 180 is a DQ-able offense, because of some odd definition of "muzzle line" that doesn't reference the muzzle and "what we all know" facing uprange means instead of the rulebook definition and hips and shoulders and whatever other stuff has been thrown in in place of what seems to me perfectly comprehensible official rulings.

And ROs are free to consult with the RM after stopping a shooter, to determine the best rule to cite.....

So, if they see something they know or strongly suspect is a safety issue, they stop the run. Following discussion, they finalize the call -- which might result in a reshoot or a DQ....

[CB45]

DQ or No DQ?

I'm still confused

Edited March 27, 2014 by CB45

[ctay]

And to all the guys talking about exposing or having access to the trigger. The rule does not say that. The rule says, "access to any

portion of the interior of the trigger guard."

All you have to see is the inside of the back part of the trigger guard to call it a draw. If I see a gun drawn uprange I will DQ the shooter. They are more than welcome to take it to arb.

You must have amazing eyesight - or you willing to DQ someone for what you think you saw. Picking up the 1/8th" of inner trigger guard while someone is turning and has their hand covering that section of the gun is an amazing feat!

[Sarge]

Not if you are in the right position and are watching for it. On any uprange start that is all I am watching. If the gun pops up out of the holster you can see inside the trigger guard quite easily if you are in the right place.

I never think I see anything. I either see it or I don't. If I see it I call it