deacon12224 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Interesting discussion. I grabbed this screen capture of me shooting the stage. Pistol is M&P Pro and holster is Blade-tech. What do you guys say - was a drawing to soon?Edit to add PDF stage description so everyone can see the layout of the stage in question. I would say that you probably are early on that draw. I can't really see if you have access to the trigger guard in the shot, but assuming that you do, probably should have been stopped. That being said, this can be a hard call to make especially if you turn into your holster. That can obscure the RO's vision of the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 What's the definition of a muzzle line? A line drawn straight out of the muzzle while in the holster, or a line perpendicular to the bore extending in front of the shooter? If it's a line straight out of the muzzle, then any rearward cant holster has a muzzle line that doesn't break the 90 degree intercept during the entire turn. That would mean they can access the trigger once they've moved a few degrees off of the "facing uprange" position. That doesn't sound like what was meant by muzzle line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ. That's the way I interpret the rules and the NROI ruling. If your hips aren't at least perpendicular to the back berm, you better not expose the trigger. I really hate stages that have an uprange start, with a target right on the 180. (I haven't seen the stage in question, but I assume that is the case.) Yes, we as shooters should have the skills necessary to safely draw the pistol on this type of stage, but it is just asking for guys to break the 180. Breaking the 180 is a bad thing, right? That's why people no longer get to shoot if they do it. So why setup stages that significantly increase the chances of it happening? The official ruling says nothing about hips being perpendicular or 90 degrees. It says muzzle line of holster less than 90 from median intercept. If someone can rotate such that the muzzle line of their holster doesn't break 180, they're in compliance with the rule as written regardless of their hip position. Clearly, the rule talks about muzzle line of the holster and not the hips or body. I think most ROs are taught to watch the hips because it would be pretty hard to get the holster around without rotating your hips. Conversely, if you have an Open or Limited rig that has the holster situated In an appendix carry position, you may have to rotate your hips far past 90 degrees to get the muzzle line past the 90 degree mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Clearly, the rule talks about muzzle line of the holster and not the hips or body. I think most ROs are taught to watch the hips because it would be pretty hard to get the holster around without rotating your hips. Conversely, if you have an Open or Limited rig that has the holster situated In an appendix carry position, you may have to rotate your hips far past 90 degrees to get the muzzle line past the 90 degree mark. Exactly. That Is probably why the official ruling deliberately chose not to use a simple "turn 90 degrees" formulation. There are quite a few ltd/open shooters that have a rig that's pointed to 10-11 o'clock 2 ft in front of them. If they only turn 90from facing up range, that gun is most definitely breaking 180. The thing we're worried about is keeping the gun pointed downrange. If the shooter has to turn 110 degrees or only 80 to accomplish that, ("regatdless of the type of holster used") that's the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 While technically, I believe the picture probably shows a justified dq, my experience in the real world is that I can't see that clearly enough to call it. I worked stage at Area 1 last year that had a large number of dq's (uprange start, turn and move a step or two laterally to the first shooting position). I saw a LOT of draws that made me nervous, but the DQ's I called were the ones I actually saw the muzzle of the gun pointing uprange (I was about 45 degrees to one side, as scorekeeper, so it was pretty much pointed at me, which I did not like one bit). You'd have to be moving awfully slowly for the RO to be certain that trigger was exposed without being able to clearly see the muzzle pointing uprange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ. That seems an important enough point to warrant inclusion in the rulebook. +1 It would be more clear if it was written that way in the rule book but it is not, even in the new rule book. Does the previous 2008 ruling still apply since it is not included in the new rule book? The 2008 ruling itself is not as clear as it could be as shown by differing interpretations in this discussion. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 What's the definition of a muzzle line? A line drawn straight out of the muzzle while in the holster, or a line perpendicular to the bore extending in front of the shooter? If it's a line straight out of the muzzle, then any rearward cant holster has a muzzle line that doesn't break the 90 degree intercept during the entire turn. That would mean they can access the trigger once they've moved a few degrees off of the "facing uprange" position. That doesn't sound like what was meant by muzzle line. agree this is the confusing phrase to me. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 drift on the example: I'm with sperman on this. If you really need to have a turning draw in your COF, you should design it with the targets drawn to more down range. The safety committee that reviews our club match stages would have taken one look at the stage shown in the pdf and would have strongly recommended if not insisted that the start position be outside the shooting area facing down range with toes on the X's. That, or, for the turning draw, that the starting position be 10 feet up range by making the shooting area deeper. drift off I think the NROI interpretation is clear - no access to the trigger until the holster's orientation (muzzle line) is downrange, forward of the 180. It doesn't matter where the muzzle itself is pointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I think the NROI interpretation is clear - no access to the trigger until the holster's orientation (muzzle line) is downrange, forward of the 180. It doesn't matter where the muzzle itself is pointing. Kevin said what I was attempting to say. Forget that I ever used the word "hips." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Interesting discussion. I grabbed this screen capture of me shooting the stage. Pistol is M&P Pro and holster is Blade-tech. What do you guys say - was a drawing to soon?Edit to add PDF stage description so everyone can see the layout of the stage in question. I would say that you probably are early on that draw. I can't really see if you have access to the trigger guard in the shot, but assuming that you do, probably should have been stopped. That being said, this can be a hard call to make especially if you turn into your holster. That can obscure the RO's vision of the holster. That's why the clipboard RO should be on the gun side in a position to know for certain the shooter broke too early. Edited March 18, 2014 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Here's what we are discussing. I know video isn't admissible, etc. I'm not trying to internet DQ this guy, just learn the rule and make sure he doesn't get sent packing at his next match. Assuming the RO here is facing directly downrange, and for the sake of argument that the trigger is exposed in this picture, what's the call? Forward cant, rearward cant, appendix carry, open, limited, etc... etc.... That gun is up out of the holster far enough to qualify as being drawn. "access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard." The trigger does not need to be exposed. You got away with one if you were not one of the many sent home from this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Here's what we are discussing. I know video isn't admissible, etc. I'm not trying to internet DQ this guy, just learn the rule and make sure he doesn't get sent packing at his next match. Assuming the RO here is facing directly downrange, and for the sake of argument that the trigger is exposed in this picture, what's the call? Forward cant, rearward cant, appendix carry, open, limited, etc... etc.... That gun is up out of the holster far enough to qualify as being drawn. "access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard." The trigger does not need to be exposed. You got away with one if you were not one of the many sent home from this stage. He wasn't facing uprange per the rule book, the muzzle line of the holster wasn't breaking 180, nor was his muzzle. What rule warrants the DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Interesting discussion. I grabbed this screen capture of me shooting the stage. Pistol is M&P Pro and holster is Blade-tech. What do you guys say - was a drawing to soon?Edit to add PDF stage description so everyone can see the layout of the stage in question. I would say that you probably are early on that draw. I can't really see if you have access to the trigger guard in the shot, but assuming that you do, probably should have been stopped. That being said, this can be a hard call to make especially if you turn into your holster. That can obscure the RO's vision of the holster. That's why the clipboard RO should be on the gun side in a position to know for certain the shooter broke too early. And that's another reason why I hate these start positions. For the RO to be in the best position to see a violation, they are going to have a loaded gun pointed at them when the violation occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 The muzzle line of the holster appears to be pointing right at me when I look at the screen. You know, you are allowed to arb on another shooters behalf. You should have ponied up the 100 bucks if you were there. Judging by as many people apparently getting DQ'd it doesn't sound like anyone challenged the calls. They were wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. You better clarify "way beyond the 180". You mean to the bad side of the 180 right? Seems some think the muzzle line is pointing downrange already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 10.5.16 Drawing a handgun while facing uprange Appendix: Draw - The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard. Seems like a DQ to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 10.5.16 Drawing a handgun while facing uprange Appendix: Draw - The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard. Seems like a DQ to me. Now go look up the definition of facing uprange in the book. What does it say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. You better clarify "way beyond the 180". You mean to the bad side of the 180 right? Seems some think the muzzle line is pointing downrange already. Yes. The DQ side of the 180. If downrange is zero degrees, and a DQ occurs at 90 degrees, I would call this 160 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. That would be a grip line. The muzzle line is pointed straight down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Facing Uprange - Face and feet pointing directly (90°) away from the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop. Facing Down Range - The exact opposite of facing uprange So what is your point? The fact that one foot and shoulder is not right at 90? Seems like a stretch to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. That would be a grip line. The muzzle line is pointed straight down. I suggest you have a discussion with the person who taught your RO class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 IMO, the muzzle line of the holster is way beyond 180. Think about a line from the bottom of the grip to the top of the rear sight. That is how I interpret the rule, anyway. That would be a grip line. The muzzle line is pointed straight down. I suggest you have a discussion with the person who taught your RO class. If I could find the one that said the 10.5.16 requires you to turn your hips 90 degrees, I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I would also like to to talk to one that thinks a muzzle line doesn't go anywhere near the muzzle. That's funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I would also like to to talk to one that thinks a muzzle line doesn't go anywhere near the muzzle. That's funny. e-mail any of the NROI instructors. I guarantee you they will say you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now