Would you say anything to a shooter that has his gun in the holster wi

[AICS308]

Thomas H, looks like we have beat this dead horse enough here. If you want to continue the discussion lets take it to PM.

[Fuelie777]

I have found this topic interesting and beat to death. The rule is very simple, new shooter or not. DQ. Yes, introduction with new shooters, and coaching them, understanding their nervousness, as an RO, we need to help them, but safety cannot be compromised. I have unfortunately DQ'ed a few for this infraction, but they always came back, because they knew they were in a safe environment and at our club, if the RO DQ's a person, he is done for the match, not much to discuss. I also run matches, and because of this topic, will upgrade my new shooter orientation.

[McCringleberry]

Yes, that horse is way dead. I just hope that all of you would at least be the kind of RO that looks to prevent these safety issues rather than watch a slow train wreck then issue the DQ.

[Sarge]

Yes, that horse is way dead. I just hope that all of you would at least be the kind of RO that looks to prevent these safety issues rather than watch a slow train wreck then issue the DQ.

I do everything possible to help a shooter avoid a DQ. Up until the COF starts, that is.

[Fuelie777]

Yes, absolutely helping new shooters before the course of fire always is present. But as Sarge said, once the course of fire starts, then RO's shall follow the rule book.

[sjz]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

Would you remind him of his error, or let things be, and have him suffer the consequences.

Safety rules are pretty much black and white, in other words there are no degrees of being unsafe.

If an RO knows that the shooter is unsafe, there is no question in my mind that the RO must not allow the shooter to proceed. He should "immeditaely" bring it to the shooters attention and correct it, just like any other safety violation. Knowingly letting a shooter proceed in an unsafe condition without correcting it, is an absurd argument.

[vetdocone]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

I'm going to put you on the hot seat here. If you were the RO, shouldn't you have noticed that the gun was not on safe when the shooter went to holster it?

+1

[Sarge]

you are running a shooter, and he does not put the safety on his gun while loaded and holstered, and is ready to start.

I'm going to put you on the hot seat here. If you were the RO, shouldn't you have noticed that the gun was not on safe when the shooter went to holster it?

+1

not always. Almost, but not always. Still on the shooter though.

[McCringleberry]

Yes, absolutely helping new shooters before the course of fire always is present. But as Sarge said, once the course of fire starts, then RO's shall follow the rule book.

You should follow the rulebook before and after the beep. You can and should give safety instruction/guidance any time you see a safety infraction about to happen. That was my original point. If they walk up to you and you see it, that is pretty cut and dry. However for other situations, if we are doing our job, then a lot of violations can be prevented, right?

[Sarge]

Splitting hairs I know but the rule book allows for safety warnings it doesn't require them. I personally don't use the typical warnings like finger etc. I look at it like this, a new shooter gets finger, finger, finger,........... What do you do when the next guy is not new but reloads with his finger on the trigger? How can you DQ him after letting"new" guys get away with it. If I got DQ'd for a finger violation after watching an RO warn the five guys before me, That would be a problem for me. I feel I owe consistent ROing to the seasoned shooters as well as the newbies. And I am not going to blow off the rules just to be fair to everybody. I personally would rather lose a new shooter who got DQ'ed than to lose a regular seasoned shooter because he thinks I run an unsafe match.

[McCringleberry]

Nope, new or seasoned, they get the same warnings or actions from me, thats consistency and safe. Again, we are doing a disservice to the shooter and our sport if we are not trying to prevent this type of safety infraction, if possible.

[motosapiens]

Splitting hairs I know but the rule book allows for safety warnings it doesn't require them. I personally don't use the typical warnings like finger etc. I look at it like this, a new shooter gets finger, finger, finger,........... What do you do when the next guy is not new but reloads with his finger on the trigger? How can you DQ him after letting"new" guys get away with it. If I got DQ'd for a finger violation after watching an RO warn the five guys before me, That would be a problem for me. I feel I owe consistent ROing to the seasoned shooters as well as the newbies. And I am not going to blow off the rules just to be fair to everybody. I personally would rather lose a new shooter who got DQ'ed than to lose a regular seasoned shooter because he thinks I run an unsafe match.

I don't think safety warnings are intended for people that are clearly breaking a safety rule, but for people that are getting close to doing so, or it looks like they *might* be breaking the rule but you don't have a perfect view. For example, I'll call 'muzzle' at a local match if someone (esp a new shooter) looks like they're not really paying enough attention to that aspect of their shooting. If the muzzle is pointed past the 180 tho, that's not a warning, that's a dq.

[TGO]

I'm not an RO so my opinion basically means nothing but if we could teach a new shooter about the rules while still being safe isn't there some value in that? Shooter loads his pistol, cocks the hammer but does not engage the safety and then holsters the gun and releases his grip .... At this point the RO then informs him that he has just committed a DQ offense, explains everything to him, has him correct his error and then allows him to shoot the CoF and tell him this was his one and only free pass .... Safety was not compromised and the new shooter got to continue to shoot the match and go home happy, probably to come back .... Everyone wins ......???

Of course I guess you could argue that the moment he started to holster the gun with the safety not engaged he was in an unsafe condition, which if true would warrent a DQ ....

All of that goes exactly the same but he holsters the gun and it fires. Do you try to figure out if the gun malfunctioned or he hit the trigger with his finger? Neither. You help him unload and take him to the emergency room to get sewn up and hope he doesn't bleed to death on the way. These aren't toys folks and not everyone can do this without training and practice.

if the gun was unsafe when holstered it is a DQ, and the safety of everyone is more important than saving face for the shooter. If this type of mistake is being made, the shooter is not ready to be doing this kind of shooting if he endangers others on the range. Because the gun didn't fire doesn't mean safety wasn't compromised.

This is a constant problem with inexperienced shooters in the training I run. I do not kick them out the first time it happens, but i do if they do it repeatedly. I shouldn't let them ever do it, but I'm a softy. And, this is why they came to my class, to learn how to do things.

A match is a whole different world entirely and isn't a place to see if a potential shooter is safe. BTW, shooters who do this repeatedly are the same ones that break the 180 constantly, handle their guns in unsafe areas and keep their fingers in the trigger guards while moving and reloading. Guess what happens next???

[levellinebrad]

I am a fairly new shooter in uspsa, less than a year. My opinion is that if you own a gun, you should understand the safe operation of said gun before you strap it on much less before you go to a competition. I am all for giving New shooters a break with anything except safety violations. If you can catch it before it happens, absolutely say something. After it happens, it's too late. Every match I have been to has a new shooters safety brief. In that brief, new shooters are told about dq offenses. My first match was awesome because the old hands jumped right in and started asking questions of me. How long had I been shooting, what division, so forth and so on. Everybody pushed safety, safety, and then more safety.

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[frag316]

I'm not an RO so my opinion basically means nothing but if we could teach a new shooter about the rules while still being safe isn't there some value in that? Shooter loads his pistol, cocks the hammer but does not engage the safety and then holsters the gun and releases his grip .... At this point the RO then informs him that he has just committed a DQ offense, explains everything to him, has him correct his error and then allows him to shoot the CoF and tell him this was his one and only free pass .... Safety was not compromised and the new shooter got to continue to shoot the match and go home happy, probably to come back .... Everyone wins ......???

Of course I guess you could argue that the moment he started to holster the gun with the safety not engaged he was in an unsafe condition, which if true would warrent a DQ ....

All of that goes exactly the same but he holsters the gun and it fires. Do you try to figure out if the gun malfunctioned or he hit the trigger with his finger? Neither. You help him unload and take him to the emergency room to get sewn up and hope he doesn't bleed to death on the way. These aren't toys folks and not everyone can do this without training and practice.

if the gun was unsafe when holstered it is a DQ, and the safety of everyone is more important than saving face for the shooter. If this type of mistake is being made, the shooter is not ready to be doing this kind of shooting if he endangers others on the range. Because the gun didn't fire doesn't mean safety wasn't compromised.

This is a constant problem with inexperienced shooters in the training I run. I do not kick them out the first time it happens, but i do if they do it repeatedly. I shouldn't let them ever do it, but I'm a softy. And, this is why they came to my class, to learn how to do things.

A match is a whole different world entirely and isn't a place to see if a potential shooter is safe. BTW, shooters who do this repeatedly are the same ones that break the 180 constantly, handle their guns in unsafe areas and keep their fingers in the trigger guards while moving and reloading. Guess what happens next???

This.

Here's the problem--we give this guy a pass. How long does he get free passes? One per infraction? One infraction total? How will he learn? What happens when he goes to a state or Area match and does the same thing? Now he's just gotten DQ'd from a much more expensive match and has the stigma of being the guy who DEFINITELY should have known better, but did it anyway.