LEO & MIL only 3 gun match ?

[toothandnail]

Anybody try one?

We have been talking about trying one for quite sometime, keeping it more inline with their training and weapons skills they encounter on the job.

Also I think more would show-up and get the bug, which leads to more shooting, and better all around skills for them.

We actually talked to a buddy today about it, he just got back from 6-8? years in Iraq (contractor) and is training police now.

He went to a 3 gun with us, he liked it but most of his equip is not optimal for 3 gun, he was REALLY interested in doing a match along those lines.

Edited March 6, 2014 by toothandnail

[striped1]

Why would we seek to exclude a majority of the competitors in the sport? Makes no sense to me.

[toothandnail]

Simple, because,

HOW many LEO do you see at a 3gun match ? hardly any - around here anyway

WHY? In my experience when they DO show-up, they are usually either above average, and will come back, or

very poor shooters and will never come back, as well as, talk it down to their buddies.

When shooting with peers, a bad performance is not as embarrassing? (not really the word I'm looking for).

I have taken 4 cop/leo buddies to a 3gun, NONE will come back.

We're trying to get MORE involved, I think this is a first step.

Maybe I'm wrong . . . . won't be the first time

I'm talking a SMALL local matchs here 20-40 shooters, trying to get some of these guys practicing

Edited March 6, 2014 by toothandnail

[MarkCO]

Are not Garcia, Jordan, Horner (and others) LEO/MIL? They can win a LEO only match easier than an unrestricted match, so you will get the same outcome.

There are a LOT of people who have only shot one or two 3Gun matches and never went back...not just a LE/MIL thing. Most LE these days are not "gun guys" and the ones that are seek out the competition. We are seeing more and more locally BTW.

[Bright]

Toothandnail, I actually got into 3gun by shooting at a LEO match hosted by the Texas Narcotics Officers Association. It was a blast, and the stages were developed so that guys could come out with standard police equipment and compete. I showed up with a 18" pump shotgun and was not at a great disadvantage to those shooting a semi-auto. As a matter of fact the match was done with birdshot so most the semi-autos were having a hard time cycling since they typically shoot buck, everyone on my squad finished the match with my 870. After shooting my first regular 3gun match I went out and bought a Versa-max tactical and learned the load 2 method which made me a lot more competitive in the sport.

If you want to host a match like this I think you could get a very good showing if you market it to the right people. If you can get a department to back it or maybe an officer's association to host you could get a good showing.

[gixxerjunky]

Have you seen Leo's shoot??? Lol

Most of them are very poor shooters and lack any sort of skills.

[USCSBarney]

It is called NRA TPC (Tactical Police Competition) bit is only open to LEO's and MIL. They run Four to Six matches a year. In fact I ran into two of the guys that help run the Anderson, SC match every year at the 3GN SE Regional this past weekend. Yes, several of us there were cops or feds. I was even on my agency's team the one year we fielded one.

You are correct though. Most cops are not gun guys and most agencies/departments don't commit to weapons training for the average Joe, too expensive. And most don't play the gun sports as they get their hats handed to thy by civilians and their pride takes it in the rear. With that said, there are a number of us that enjoy it and appreciate what it can do for us if the the worst ever happens. The one thing we dislike are the tactical wannabe's who seem to think they know what the real world is like. Not the guys coming back from overseas, they know what hell is, I mean the mall ninjas that talk a big game but would wet themselves it it came to putting cuffs on a die in the wool gang banger.

What we play is a sport, never confuse it for the seedy world most never see. Shoot limited with a Glock, 18" shotgun and a legal SBR if you want but don't fool yourself into thinking you are becoming a Seal.

I guess what I am trying to say is, it is a sport brother, enjoy it for what it is. Training never comes close the real thing anyway, trust me.

[toothandnail]

Toothandnail, I actually got into 3gun by shooting at a LEO match hosted by the Texas Narcotics Officers Association. It was a blast, and the stages were developed so that guys could come out with standard police equipment and compete. I showed up with a 18" pump shotgun and was not at a great disadvantage to those shooting a semi-auto. As a matter of fact the match was done with birdshot so most the semi-autos were having a hard time cycling since they typically shoot buck, everyone on my squad finished the match with my 870. After shooting my first regular 3gun match I went out and bought a Versa-max tactical and learned the load 2 method which made me a lot more competitive in the sport.

If you want to host a match like this I think you could get a very good showing if you market it to the right people. If you can get a department to back it or maybe an officer's association to host you could get a good showing.

Thanks, We are hoping to replicate the same

[TXMXRACER]

The Austin Police marksman team puts on one every year. Great turnout and a fun match.

[toothandnail]

It is called NRA TPC (Tactical Police Competition) bit is only open to LEO's and MIL. They run Four to Six matches a year. In fact I ran into two of the guys that help run the Anderson, SC match every year at the 3GN SE Regional this past weekend. Yes, several of us there were cops or feds. I was even on my agency's team the one year we fielded one.

You are correct though. Most cops are not gun guys and most agencies/departments don't commit to weapons training for the average Joe, too expensive. And most don't play the gun sports as they get their hats handed to thy by civilians and their pride takes it in the rear. With that said, there are a number of us that enjoy it and appreciate what it can do for us if the the worst ever happens. The one thing we dislike are the tactical wannabe's who seem to think they know what the real world is like. Not the guys coming back from overseas, they know what hell is, I mean the mall ninjas that talk a big game but would wet themselves it it came to putting cuffs on a die in the wool gang banger.

What we play is a sport, never confuse it for the seedy world most never see. Shoot limited with a Glock, 18" shotgun and a legal SBR if you want but don't fool yourself into thinking you are becoming a Seal.

I guess what I am trying to say is, it is a sport brother, enjoy it for what it is. Training never comes close the real thing anyway, trust me.

Never said it was training, it's weapons handling/skills under stress, grated it's different than ON-the-JOB stress, but it's stress. most of my LEO buddies DID acknowledge this. Said it was better than the "stress" in their training, where everything was structured.

What I'm saying is

Would YOU go play a major league baseball team, if your gear consisted of a 2x4 for a bat and no glove?

In my experience LEO/MIL guys have more pride/ego (call it what you will ) than the average, at least give them an opportunity to compete with others with equal equipment, and station in life.

[EricS]

I shot the Utah Peace Officer's Association 3 Gun match in February. They got a great turn out and most all the shooters had a good time. I think many (most?) of them will return next year and more than a few will shoot other 3 Gun matches. We had some that are competition regulars but I'd say the majority were first timers. It was a fantastic event and even had a very generous prize table. If you're interested shoot me a PM and I'll forward your contact info to one of the organizers.

[Alaskapopo]

I have attended them for the last 7 years or so. And I have also hosted them. The do serve a purpose. They allow cops to complete with duty gear in an environment with other cops. You don't have to have your guard up as much and you can stress things that we see as lacking in standard 3 gun formats. Such as different scoring to emphasize accuracy or physical skills etc. That said I personally enjoy standard 3 gun matches a bit better.

Pat

Edited March 6, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[LoganbillJ]

The idea behind the match is to provide an atmosphere where Military and Law Enforcement can come and shoot and enjoy themselves without the pressure of getting their butts handed to them by a civilian. If anything it may create friendly competition between departments locally. It will also allow them to participate in a 3 gun where they would other wise not. We are trying to push 3 gun harder locally and feel this is a good way to do it on the MIL/LEO side.

Part of the reason we are thinking about putting one on is one LEO came to a local 3 gun with us last month. He came out and shot with us at our range before so we could run him through some things so he wouldn't be completely lost at the match. He made the comment that he was surprised at the amount of stress that was induced while shooting a COF. Something he does not get out of qualification or their training. I understand 3 gun is a sport and not training, but as far as our MIL/LEO goes the more trigger time they get, the better. If it furthers their ability to think and function under stress so be it.

ETA: This would be in addition to the monthly 3 gun matches so no one would be "excluded" on that side of things.

Edited March 7, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[MarkCO]

Have you considered getting someone who is local LE and who does 3Gun to put on a class? Get them familiar and then fold them into the local matches. That process has worked well in other locations.

[Benelli Chick]

You need to be careful about who you get to RO and make some decisions beforehand about DQ's.

Some of the things they are trained to do, don't mesh with the sporting aspect as well and the stress can make them do some "different" things.

I speak from experience. Used to RO the LE matches put on in Pueblo, CO and Highlands Ranch, CO and some of the cops are extremely safe and in the proper mindset, and some have a hard time with it. I can see that it would make them feel more comfortable shooting with other LE, but when I was there, their captain really pushed participation, and 95% never came to a non-LE match for all the reasons stated above even after participating in the LE match and getting some fabulous prizes!

Sounds like the guy who came out with you is going to be one of those that's interested in coming back!

Denise

[LoganbillJ]

We are working closely with the guy who trains our local swat team. He also works with surrounding departments. We will use our knowledge of 3 gun and combine it with his knowledge of the training and procedures they go through. He attended the last match as well and is planning on returning as well as the other guy I mentioned.

[assaulter]

I'd shoot in it. Where were you thinking of having it? CMMG?

[LoganbillJ]

We are in the process of setting up our range with berms so we can begin having regular matches. Thinking about trying to get a MO 3 gun series together next year as well.

[jackson923]

Why is the Fire Dept always left out in the LEO/MIL category?

[Alaskapopo]

Have you seen Leo's shoot??? Lol

Most of them are very poor shooters and lack any sort of skills.

Troll much? The forum rules forbid me to reply like I would like. You post could not have been more offending if you tried but I imagine that was intentional. There area lot of LEO shooters who frequent this board like myself. I will say that you painting with a broad brush. Some of the best shooters in the game like Eric Lund are also LEO's. In my experience the average LEO's tend to be worlds better than the average FUD gun owner.

Pat

Edited March 11, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

Why is the Fire Dept always left out in the LEO/MIL category?

Because you don't carry a gun for a living. One of the points of a LEO match is to get cops using the duty gear in a competition environment.

Pat

Edited March 11, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[gose]

How about a CQTAS match?

Edited March 11, 2014 by gose

[McCringleberry]

Come on PoPo, let's be real here, there are many LEO who are very average or poor shooters. I hate to admit it but it is the truth. I was a firearms instructor/FTO for years and I was dumbfounded to see that so many of my LEO brothers and sisters did not take their firearms skills and training serious. There were a few great shooters and some horrible shooters but a ton in the middle that just wanted to get their quals over with. On top of that, the qual course was usually the last time they shot or cleaned their sidearm until the next mandatory shoot. I even had an officer tell me she didn't like guns - I couldn't believe it! Anyway, don't be so harsh, most things on here are just opinion but there is a lot of truth also.

I think LEO matches would be great - it levels the playing field somewhat and would help spark some interest to go out with others using their duty gear. Remember some other matches started out or are currently LEO only.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Alaskapopo]

Come on PoPo, let's be real here, there are many LEO who are very average or poor shooters. I hate to admit it but it is the truth. I was a firearms instructor/FTO for years and I was dumbfounded to see that so many of my LEO brothers and sisters did not take their firearms skills and training serious. There were a few great shooters and some horrible shooters but a ton in the middle that just wanted to get their quals over with. On top of that, the qual course was usually the last time they shot or cleaned their sidearm until the next mandatory shoot. I even had an officer tell me she didn't like guns - I couldn't believe it! Anyway, don't be so harsh, most things on here are just opinion but there is a lot of truth also.

I think LEO matches would be great - it levels the playing field somewhat and would help spark some interest to go out with others using their duty gear. Remember some other matches started out or are currently LEO only.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes lets get real. I have had more guns pointed at me by new shooters fumbling at matches than I have ever had in stressful (physically and mentally) LEO training. I have seen more fuds that can't hit the broad side of a barn at the local range or gravel pit than I have ever seen with officers. LEO's fall short of what competition shooters think they should be but they are far and away better than the average gun owner by leaps and bounds. The reason is a standard level of training that is not required of Fuds. Runners think LEO's should all be able to run a marathon. Gym rats think we should all be able to bench 400 pounds. Academics think we should all have a masters degree. Get the point. Yes I agree training should be much better and we can do better. But to say we are all poor incompetent shooters as gixxerjunky states is a flat out lie.

Frankly I am sick of the thinly veiled cop bashing that I saw in his post. If he had posted that soldiers were poor and incompetent shooters people would be jumping all of him. But since the subject is cops is ok to bash us. In honest truth I shoot with a lot of soldiers or former soldiers and their skill range is generally worse than LEO's with the handguns and shotguns and better with the rifles. Go figure. It has to do with training. The best shooters in any group rather its soldier, police or citizen is those that have a love of the sport. They are the ones who excel.

I base my opinion on being a LEO for the last 14 years with being a firearms instructor the last 12 of those years and on being involved in competition shooting even longer if you count my Bullseye days in College over 19 years ago.

One of the biggest things that keeps LEO's away from matches is the schedule. Most of us don't have weekends off. I did not get that until I got promoted and I only get Sunday for matches. The guys who work for me have to take leave if they want to shoot a match as I did before.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[Chuck Anderson]

Go for it. That's how I started in competition. 1996 Al Mar Memorial LE Match. Run by a few SOF 3-Gun Veterans and restricted to LE only. I didn't have any competition gear and shot with my duty gear. Glock 21 with one spare mag, 870 and a Colt with a Trijicon Reflex. Had a blast. I found out about the match through the LE training notices. Shot it for two years before I figured out there were other matches to shoot. Moved into IDPA and USPSA, quickly dropping the IDPA, more because of the drive than anything else. When I shot my first USPSA match I was fortunate to have some excellent shooters take me under their wing, explaining that walking around with my slide locked back was a no no and that I "shot pretty good for a cop." I have no idea what I would be doing if it wasn't for that first LE match that got me in the door but I'm glad it did.

The Al Mar match is no more. I think about bringing it back from time to time but the club they held it at is a shell of its former awesomeness. I've run one of the NRA TPC matches there as well. Interesting match and I might do it again if it wasn't an NRA program. From time to time locally we run LE matches. It had to be done in the right manner to be a positive experience. Fairly simple straightforward stages. (No forest of swingers and US Poppers at 40 yards) and make sure the people running it are expecting mediocre at best performances. No comments about expecting they'd do better, or they can't believe they carry a gun for work. Keep I. Mind this will be the first match for many and it is different than what they've been trained for. It's a new skill set. Although most will have the ability to make the shots you give them, stringing multiple things to think about is not easy the first time you do it. And above all, resist the urge to throw the junior girl into the match to kick everyone's butt. They did that at one of the local ones. Nothing like taking a great experience and ruining it because you want to show off how much better your 14 year old daughter is than all the local cops.