Receiving help on the COF

[twodownzero]

This is one of those rare instances where I would have DQed the master class shooter for unsportsmanlike conduct. Neither a reshoot nor a procedural solves the problem.

The assistant gets a procedural.

[steel1212]

This is one of those rare instances where I would have DQed the master class shooter for unsportsmanlike conduct. Neither a reshoot nor a procedural solves the problem.

The assistant gets a procedural.

See I don't understand that at all. If he turns to pick up a mag and he can't do so. In my opinion class or experience doesn't have anything to do with it. The shooter has been interfered with in my opinion.

[Nik Habicht]

Hmmm. Can't finish the COF because it has been altered by Mister Happy being where and doing what he shouldn't? I'd call it a RS too,

Let's get even more esoteric. For stage planning reasons a nearly full magazine is dropped on the first reload uprange. There are multiple nearly empty magazines dropped more downrange afterwards as the shooter moves through the COF. The last position is up and the shooter has no or runs out of ammo. He turns to retrieve an uprange dropped magazine and Mr. Happy is standing near the start position with the nearly full mag, with three other partially depleted mags lying between. The shooter either finishes uisng the mags still down, perhaps needing more than one of them, or stops, but either way demands a reshoot, saying he needed and intended to get the first mag dropped but could not. Does he get the RS?

Yes, he gets the reshoot.....

[Poppa Bear]

To my mind there are really only two options. Either the RO issues a procedural penalty to the shooter for accepting the offered magazine, or issuing a reshoot because the shooter claims interference when they notice the other party is holding the magazine they were going to run back for.

The first option is at the RO's discretion Rule 8.6.2. The second would require a shooter who can think quick on their feet because they would need to demand the reshoot as soon as they notice the magazine in the other parties hand "because they intended to retrieve it themselves". The RO would also need to believe the shooter had that intent because the reshoot would still be at the RO's discretion. Rule 8.6.4

[twodownzero]

This is one of those rare instances where I would have DQed the master class shooter for unsportsmanlike conduct. Neither a reshoot nor a procedural solves the problem.

The assistant gets a procedural.

See I don't understand that at all. If he turns to pick up a mag and he can't do so. In my opinion class or experience doesn't have anything to do with it. The shooter has been interfered with in my opinion.

It has little to do with his class and a lot to do with the fact that once he accepts the mag, he knows he's trying to cheat by using it. You may say he's only making the best of the facts that were handed to him but I find that pathetically disingenuous. He wasn't going back for that mag.

The interference is solved by a procedural for the assistant.

The guy who accepts the mag knows what he did and he ought to pack his bag and be done for the day.

Edited February 27, 2014 by twodownzero

[alma]

After the dropped mag was picked up it effectively changed the COF. You would have to stop the shooter and he would need to reshoot. Not sure about any penalties for the other shooter. If it wasn't intentional then I wouldn't press it on a first offense. Now to the rule book to see whether there are any grounds for my response.

[alma]

I remember this came up at Club matches in the past. A shooter can run back to retrieve a dropped mag but if someone else moved it then it was viewed as a reshoot. It's why we have to stress that mags need to say on the ground until the end of the COF. Sometimes this is hard to do if you are trying to score and tape before the end of the COF which could also get you in trouble from a technical standpoint.

[steel1212]

This is one of those rare instances where I would have DQed the master class shooter for unsportsmanlike conduct. Neither a reshoot nor a procedural solves the problem.

The assistant gets a procedural.

See I don't understand that at all. If he turns to pick up a mag and he can't do so. In my opinion class or experience doesn't have anything to do with it. The shooter has been interfered with in my opinion.

It has little to do with his class and a lot to do with the fact that once he accepts the mag, he knows he's trying to cheat by using it. You may say he's only making the best of the facts that were handed to him but I find that pathetically disingenuous. He wasn't going back for that mag.

The interference is solved by a procedural for the assistant.

The guy who accepts the mag knows what he did and he ought to pack his bag and be done for the day.

Technically the guy that handed him the mag is aiding in him "cheating"

[alma]

Or is it the fault of the RO for allowing other shooters onto the COF to tape etc. Before it's over?

Who's fault is it when someone forgets to tape a target or sets a singer incorrect causing a range failure? In these cases it's essentially the RO's responsibility to ensure the stage is ready and the shooter who set the swinger wrong wouldn't be getting a penalty.

[EkuJustice]

How do you determine the shooter was not going back for the mag. 5 pieces of steel is 125 points right there. 10 fte 10 mike 5 for the hit. Especially with a low hit factor your gonna be able to make it beneficial to go back for it. If it's even a 5 hit factor it's 25 seconds right there.

[alma]

You can't make that determination.

So here are my rule book responses to this scenario.

• Per 8.6.2 the penalty against the person who picked up the mag would be at the descresion of the range officer: 8.6.2 - Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.
• Per 8.6.4 you should rule this as an "External Influence" and offer the competitor a reshoot. 8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

Edited February 27, 2014 by alma

[kevin c]

Just to clarify folks, there's the original situation that I described in post #1 where the shooter was handed a magazine to finish the COF. and then there are the hypotheticals that steel1212 and I threw out there that are superficially similar but signficantly different variants. The first case I've think we've settled as being an 8.6.2 violation with penalties to both the mag recipient and the helper. The last scenario posited in post # 25 sounds like a 8.6.4 interference call with a RS being appropriate.

PB's observation is interesting, that the first scenario could turn into an 8.6.4 RS if the shooter took the mag but DIDN'T use it, but claimed that he lost the opportunity to appropriately retrieve it himself (at the cost of the time spent to go to it and back again). So it would be interference for Mr Happy to get and give the mag right up to the point where Mr Shooter fires the first shot from it, at which point it immediately turns into unauthorized assistance. Same penalty to Happy, majorly different outcomes for Shooter.

Just to confirm what PoppaBear said - interference calls always at the discretion of the RO? The shooter may ask, but it's the RO's call, isn't it?

Another question - if you lose the opportunity to do something like recover a dropped magazine, but didn't know it or didn't take advantage of it, is that still interference?

Edited February 27, 2014 by kevin c

[steel1212]

In my opinion, using the mag example, if somebody picked it up but the shooter never comes back to use it score as is and roll on.

[alma]

In my opinion, using the mag example, if somebody picked it up but the shooter never comes back to use it score as is and roll on.

For consideration: 5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or dis-carded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, howev-er, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

[frag316]

The resetters should not be on the stage, and dropped mags should not be touched, until ULSC is complete. If the shooter got to the end and decided to run back to get a discarded mag (which he is perfectly entitled to do so long as he is safe), then the resetters are in the way/in danger, and the magazines may no longer be where the shooter dropped them. I appreciate that stages have to be reset efficiently to keep the match on schedule, and this can be achieved by a second RO scoring the targets behind the shooter... one scorer is a lot more able to get out of the way quickly than a gaggle of resetters.

It's not the shooters fault if he chooses to go back and can't because of people on the stage or in the way. If the ro needs to stop the shooter for something other than something he did that warrants a dq then he gets a reshoot. As an ro you need to keep the stage clear especially if something went wrong and there is a good chance the shooter is gonna come back. If the shooter were stopped while a mag was being offered then he's gonna get a reshoot.

And I'm not arguing it's the competitor's fault. I acknowledge that he gets a reshoot. However, the answer "well, he could just have gone back to get the dropped magazine" doesn't necessarily fly here, because of the way the stage was administered. In a lot of ways, the competitors and the ROs have entered into an agreement by running the stage the way they did--a competitor may object to other people being on the stage at the same time he's shooting it, because it either is or could be interference. However, he tacitly accepted the risk by not raising an objection (experience and familiarity with the rulebook notwithstanding). The RO is tacitly accepting the potential for having to order a reshoot (can't offer one, has to mandate it), because safety would require him to interfere with the competitor, should the competitor make a movement that violates safety rules (having people downrange of a loaded gun, in this case).

Hmmm. Can't finish the COF because it has been altered by Mister Happy being where and doing what he shouldn't? I'd call it a RS too,

Let's get even more esoteric. For stage planning reasons a nearly full magazine is dropped on the first reload uprange. There are multiple nearly empty magazines dropped more downrange afterwards as the shooter moves through the COF. The last position is up and the shooter has no or runs out of ammo. He turns to retrieve an uprange dropped magazine and Mr. Happy is standing near the start position with the nearly full mag, with three other partially depleted mags lying between. The shooter either finishes uisng the mags still down, perhaps needing more than one of them, or stops, but either way demands a reshoot, saying he needed and intended to get the first mag dropped but could not. Does he get the RS?

Probably. Theoretically, the competitor could yell to the guy to drop the mag and retrieve it, but could also claim interference and get a reshoot.

[frag316]

Just to clarify folks, there's the original situation that I described in post #1 where the shooter was handed a magazine to finish the COF. and then there are the hypotheticals that steel1212 and I threw out there that are superficially similar but signficantly different variants. The first case I've think we've settled as being an 8.6.2 violation with penalties to both the mag recipient and the helper. The last scenario posited in post # 25 sounds like a 8.6.4 interference call with a RS being appropriate.

PB's observation is interesting, that the first scenario could turn into an 8.6.4 RS if the shooter took the mag but DIDN'T use it, but claimed that he lost the opportunity to appropriately retrieve it himself (at the cost of the time spent to go to it and back again). So it would be interference for Mr Happy to get and give the mag right up to the point where Mr Shooter fires the first shot from it, at which point it immediately turns into unauthorized assistance. Same penalty to Happy, majorly different outcomes for Shooter.

Just to confirm what PoppaBear said - interference calls always at the discretion of the RO? The shooter may ask, but it's the RO's call, isn't it?

Another question - if you lose the opportunity to do something like recover a dropped magazine, but didn't know it or didn't take advantage of it, is that still interference?

If the competitor claims interference, and the RO disagrees, you get the RM to make the call. I could have done this at the Iowa Sectional, but decided not to, because I was satisfied with the way I shot the stage.

[EkuJustice]

The safe retrieval means the shooter has to basically not break the 180 sweep self etc to retrieve it. The shooter who is VERY familiar with the rules and can think fast on their feet can certainly have an advantage. You may think the shooter got a break if he gets a reshoot and feel he deserves a bad score but if it was interfered and he is unable to complete his run due to interference and it will probibally go up to the rm or arbitration committee.

[kevin c]

The safe retrieval means the shooter has to basically not break the 180 sweep self etc to retrieve it. The shooter who is VERY familiar with the rules and can think fast on their feet can certainly have an advantage. You may think the shooter got a break if he gets a reshoot and feel he deserves a bad score but if it was interfered and he is unable to complete his run due to interference and it will probibally go up to the rm or arbitration committee.

And I'm beginning to believe he'd win that arb.

[alma]

The safe retrieval means the shooter has to basically not break the 180 sweep self etc to retrieve it. The shooter who is VERY familiar with the rules and can think fast on their feet can certainly have an advantage. You may think the shooter got a break if he gets a reshoot and feel he deserves a bad score but if it was interfered and he is unable to complete his run due to interference and it will probibally go up to the rm or arbitration committee.

And I'm beginning to believe he'd win that arb.

I think that he would. It wasn't his fault that another shooter interrupted his run before it was over.

[kevin c]

The safe retrieval means the shooter has to basically not break the 180 sweep self etc to retrieve it. The shooter who is VERY familiar with the rules and can think fast on their feet can certainly have an advantage. You may think the shooter got a break if he gets a reshoot and feel he deserves a bad score but if it was interfered and he is unable to complete his run due to interference and it will probibally go up to the rm or arbitration committee.

And I'm beginning to believe he'd win that arb.

I think that he would. It wasn't his fault that another shooter interrupted his run before it was over.

I'm also pretty sure he'd lose the arb, though, if he went ahead and used the magazine (by which I mean firing a shot from that mag). At that point it changes to receiving assistance during the COF. I can't see claiming interference or an unfair change in the COF if the shooter actually benefitted from Mr. Happy's overzealous help.

[sperman]

I disagree. Nothing that happens later in the course of fire can change the fact that the shooters run was interfered with. I doubt it would ever go to arbitration, because the CRO/RM would issue a reshoot.

[ZackJones]

Valuable lesson learned here: Leave the mags alone until after the ULSC command is issued. In the past I have picked them up for shooters to help but from now on I'm leaving them alone.

[mildot1]

Sorry.

No where in the rules does it say anything about "entering into agreements"!

1. The mags should have never been picked up.

2. There should have never been a competitor close enough to proffer a picked up mag.

3. The simple fact that a competitor spoke to or handed the shooter a mag is interferance from the time that "make ready" to "range is clear" commands are given.

4. Having any one on the range could be ruled interferance if it impedes the shooter in anyway IE: retreating to recover said dropped mag. The range personnel are reponsible for getting out of the way, and either the shooter stops themself or the RO should be yelling stop if anyone is downrange of the shooter due to a hasty retreat.

In my mind as a RO the competitor owns the entire stage during his run. My only job is to make sure that he completes it safely in accordance with the WSB, administer any procedurals or DQ earned, and keep myself and anyone else out of his way and safe!

I realize that on sunday everyone wants to have a fun match and shoot thier best and get HOME, and sometimes we try to expedite thigs byscoring and pasting as we move forward.

Unfortunately an a rare occasion it bites our ass.

FWIW

Mildot

[kevin c]

I disagree. Nothing that happens later in the course of fire can change the fact that the shooters run was interfered with. I doubt it would ever go to arbitration, because the CRO/RM would issue a reshoot.

Are you saying, Scott, that my shooter in the first post actually could have legitimately gotten the RS, whether he used the mag or not, and whether he went for a dropped mag or not? It's enough that the mag was moved and so not available in the way it should have been?

[JAFO]

If the shooter had never gone back for the mag, then no, there would not have been a reshoot. As soon as the shooter attempted something (like going back for a mag) that was impacted by either the presence of other shooters on the stage, or the fact that his mags are not where he left them, he should have been issued a reshoot.