cops secret training

[RadarTech]

I've shot with a few LEOs and they are fairly good... But I have seen one get so mad when a 14 yo kid beat him in stage one with a 1911 shooing l10 to the Leo's production that he packed up and left.

Haven't seen him since.

A former sheriff in SC forbid his deputies from shooting at our matches. Not sure why.... The current sheriff actually has made the news about wanting all to get Carry permits.....

So it is unique to say the least.....

[RangerTrace]

Some of the best Limited shooters in the DFW area are Cops. A couple of them run the range at their Department and probably get some additional Department ammo......

As to their covering the windows, my guess would be low light shooting or maybe some of the Narcotics officers were shooting and they wanted to protect their identity.

Edited April 7, 2014 by SV-COP

[Cavy]

Some local LEO's were responsible for getting one range in the Seattle area shut down because they were not following the basic safety guidelines and several rounds left the range as a result.

[MGMorden]

Our gun club has training time for a few law enforcement agencies blocked off. One thing in our orientation that they stated was that if you're out there when they are (there are a lot of bays so the whole range isn't always closed down) is that you don't take pictures. One of the reasons stated was that some of the guys out there could operate undercover and they didn't want pictures of the "Sheriff's department practicing" to circulate and blow their cover.

Perhaps the tape over the windows serves a similar purpose.

Edited April 8, 2014 by MGMorden

[JimmyZip]

I have always loved when the law enforcement people have chosen to use our range. They never, ever, pick up their brass. I used to hit the range right after them once a year if I could. I had enough brass the first time to shoot over a year. 9mm, .40, 10mm, Loads of 40 and 9mm. Always polite, sometimes if I am there and they show up on one of the regular days not scheduled for them, the CHP trainer would let us run his course. Lots of fun, and very eye opening.

[danman00]

5 out of the top 10 IDPA shooters at out club in SW Florida are LEO's or retired LEO's. Those guys shoot very well.

[mwc]

Truth is most cops "shoot" about as well as the average USPSA shooter does. The difference is the mind set. A police officer is accountable for every round fired and just can't shoot two rounds into a bad guy and run away to shoot someone else. They shoot to stop the threat and most know that two rounds rarely stops anyone instantly.

I think LEOs get a bad rap for not being able to shoot because you read stories in the paper about them firing 50-60 rounds at a suspect during a shoot out and not connecting with any of them. The stress level we face is a match does have an effect on our performance, depending on the importance we have placed on it, but nothing compares to performing the act of firing an accurate pair into a human being that is @#!*% bent on killing you. I know that the hit factors of a lot out USPSAs top dogs would go way down if those brown paper targets were shooting back.

Edited April 17, 2014 by mwc

[kirbinster]

I'm sure the stress of shooting at a target that is firing back has a big impact. I also know many cops that shoot IDPA and USPSA that are very good. I also know how bad some of the ones are that shoot at the range. There are a few forces that do quals at my range and they have shot the hell out of the floor, ceiling and target carriers and one of those items were shooting back. I have also heard horror stories about how bad some cops are from two that ran firearms training departments and one that was a police chief.

[mwc]

No doubt there are some cops that are terrible shots, but I have been to matches and watched shooters empty a magazine at popper at 12 yards only to leave it standing. That's why I said most cops shoot as good as the average USPSA shooter. I think what makes a great USPSA competitor is learning how to efficiently transition and move when your not shooting. This is not something that LEOs need to worry about unless maybe your the pointman on an entry team.

[EddyB]

Glocks are one of few guns out there that you can count on them going BOOM wether the first time or 50,000 time

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[alma]

That's why I said most cops shoot as good as the average USPSA shooter.

That seems like a very generous statement.

Edited April 20, 2014 by alma

[Alaskapopo]

I went to my range today to try out my new glock 19 only to find the place over run with cops.apparently they were doing their monthly training. My indoor range has observation windows but they were all taped over. Either they are doing some secret ninja training or they are just embarrassed to allow the public to see how bad of shooters they are......lol I'm just kidding. I'm sure there some police who are crack pistol operators....

Hopefully I can try the new glock tomorrow.

As a police firearms instructor I don't want people watching who could be dirt bags trying to learn our tactics. I have seen plenty of un savory characters at local gun ranges. Seems like there is a lot of anti police sentiment on gun forums the last year or so. With a lot more tin foil types posting lately. With attitudes like that its no wonder why most officers don't want to shoot in USPSA and other shooting sports. We get to hear all your stories about that one time you were pulled over and the cop was a jerk or condescending comments on how you shoot so much better. As for police ability some of us are very good some just barely pass.

Pat

Edited April 20, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

Truth is most cops "shoot" about as well as the average USPSA shooter does. The difference is the mind set. A police officer is accountable for every round fired and just can't shoot two rounds into a bad guy and run away to shoot someone else. They shoot to stop the threat and most know that two rounds rarely stops anyone instantly.

I think LEOs get a bad rap for not being able to shoot because you read stories in the paper about them firing 50-60 rounds at a suspect during a shoot out and not connecting with any of them. The stress level we face is a match does have an effect on our performance, depending on the importance we have placed on it, but nothing compares to performing the act of firing an accurate pair into a human being that is @#!*% bent on killing you. I know that the hit factors of a lot out USPSAs top dogs would go way down if those brown paper targets were shooting back.

Very true and most USPSA shooters don't understand that things become a lot more difficult when the stress level rises from having targets that shoot back at you.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Some local LEO's were responsible for getting one range in the Seattle area shut down because they were not following the basic safety guidelines and several rounds left the range as a result.

Yep and I know of a lot more gun safety violations from regular joes at the range. I have had more guns pointed at me as an RO in matches than as a instructor for my PD.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Really? You think so?

If I was cop I would train religiously!

That's great and some of us do. However training is expensive and its one of the first things cut from the budget. Many cops don't make that much so ammo costs are an issue. Contrary to Hollywood's depiction of cops most of the time we are not in gun fights but rather doing more mundane things like investigating crime, wrestling with drunks etc.

Pat

[3djedi]

I love most cops! But I think they are getting a bad rap because a few have been caught abusing their power much like our government.

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[Alaskapopo]

I love most cops! But I think they are getting a bad rap because a few have been caught abusing their power much like our government.

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We are the enforcement arm of the government so every tinfoil hat type out there hates us right now no matter what we do. With any group of people you have your bad apples same goes with shooters in the shooting sports as well.

Pat

[21 shooter]

Part of the problem is what passes for a qualification course in any states. For the most part if you can get most of 50 rounds somewhere on a B-27 target, which is a big piece of paper, you qualify. Might even be called an "expert". This does not make an officer try harder and it gives them a false and possibly deadly sense of security and ability. The time limits are still pretty close to what they used when officers were using wheelguns. When they go to any kind of match it is an eye opener and some are to intimidated to try again or can't afford the ammo to get better. Lots of folks don't realize that and as was just stated ammo is among the first things cut in the budget. Most of the matches I go to like to see LE come out and shoot and will take the time to help them get better.

[Alaskapopo]

Part of the problem is what passes for a qualification course in any states. For the most part if you can get most of 50 rounds somewhere on a B-27 target, which is a big piece of paper, you qualify. Might even be called an "expert". This does not make an officer try harder and it gives them a false and possibly deadly sense of security and ability. The time limits are still pretty close to what they used when officers were using wheelguns. When they go to any kind of match it is an eye opener and some are to intimidated to try again or can't afford the ammo to get better. Lots of folks don't realize that and as was just stated ammo is among the first things cut in the budget. Most of the matches I go to like to see LE come out and shoot and will take the time to help them get better.

As you implied the problem is money or rather a lack of. Training time is expensive as is ammo and unfortunately with the current economy things are not likely to get better any time soon. Most administrators will not allow you to set the standard to a level where it should be in my opinion because they don't have the funds to pay for it. Expecting officers to spend their own money on ammo is not realistic either. I have guys working for me who are barely scraping by as it is.

Pat

Edited April 21, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[21 shooter]

You are correct about the money part and the future doesn't look pretty. I had a few officers try to compete but they didn't reload. Buying 2 or 3 boxes of .45 ACP ball ammo, entry fee, and gas to get to the match meant they didn't get to shoot many matches. You can buy lots of groceries or pay the power bill with that money.

[Alaskapopo]

You are correct about the money part and the future doesn't look pretty. I had a few officers try to compete but they didn't reload. Buying 2 or 3 boxes of .45 ACP ball ammo, entry fee, and gas to get to the match meant they didn't get to shoot many matches. You can buy lots of groceries or pay the power bill with that money.

Yea its spendy. Event he department is running low on ammo. Last training I did for them I ended up giving them about 500 rounds of my own ammo so everyone could complete the courses of fire I set up.

Pat

[3djedi]

People are up in arms in my neck of the woods as sheriff's deputy was making like $200k/year with like $90k in overtime.

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[alma]

Part of the problem is what passes for a qualification course in any states. For the most part if you can get most of 50 rounds somewhere on a B-27 target, which is a big piece of paper, you qualify. Might even be called an "expert". This does not make an officer try harder and it gives them a false and possibly deadly sense of security and ability. The time limits are still pretty close to what they used when officers were using wheelguns. When they go to any kind of match it is an eye opener and some are to intimidated to try again or can't afford the ammo to get better. Lots of folks don't realize that and as was just stated ammo is among the first things cut in the budget. Most of the matches I go to like to see LE come out and shoot and will take the time to help them get better.

As you implied the problem is money or rather a lack of. Training time is expensive as is ammo and unfortunately with the current economy things are not likely to get better any time soon. Most administrators will not allow you to set the standard to a level where it should be in my opinion because they don't have the funds to pay for it. Expecting officers to spend their own money on ammo is not realistic either. I have guys working for me who are barely scraping by as it is.

Pat

I think perspective is a more significant deficiency than money. Since qualifications are designed around the lowest common denominator many have no idea about what "good" even looks like. It builds a false confidence and ego about expertise which comes crashing down the second they step onto the range at a dynamic pistol competition with shooters who have more understanding of what good looks like. I have them upmost respect for our Law Enforcement officers. I also truly admire the ones who have the confidence (and sometimes humility) to step on the range side by side with the civilians who arrived pushing the limits of speed and accuracy with pistols, rifles, shotguns, and etc. A dear Federal LE friend of mine not only attended matches frequently but he always shot his duty gun with full-power service ammo. He also stressed accuracy whenever he approached a stage. I always felt that by doing this he was taking his responsibility to protect and defend to the next level. I certainly know that if my life was in jeopardy and I couldn't take care of it myself that he is the first one that I would hope to see exiting the SWAT transport.

[3djedi]

I got that wrong. He got $218k in overtime alone in 3 years....

http://www.citycode.com/2014/04/06/johnson-county-sheriffs-deputies-rack-up-huge-overtime/

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[Alaskapopo]

People are up in arms in my neck of the woods as sheriff's deputy was making like $200k/year with like $90k in overtime.

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If its overtime they really have no reason to complain. The work needs to be done and you should not expect anyone to work for free. Here in Alaska some Troopers make over 200K in some of the rural outposts and a lot of that is overtime. The thing is that is how those posts are. Cost of living is very high, think of $10 for a gallon of milk and $6 for a gallon of heating oil. And you are getting called out constantly for sexual assaults in the middle of the night when your off.