cops secret training

[Alaskapopo]

Part of the problem is what passes for a qualification course in any states. For the most part if you can get most of 50 rounds somewhere on a B-27 target, which is a big piece of paper, you qualify. Might even be called an "expert". This does not make an officer try harder and it gives them a false and possibly deadly sense of security and ability. The time limits are still pretty close to what they used when officers were using wheelguns. When they go to any kind of match it is an eye opener and some are to intimidated to try again or can't afford the ammo to get better. Lots of folks don't realize that and as was just stated ammo is among the first things cut in the budget. Most of the matches I go to like to see LE come out and shoot and will take the time to help them get better.

As you implied the problem is money or rather a lack of. Training time is expensive as is ammo and unfortunately with the current economy things are not likely to get better any time soon. Most administrators will not allow you to set the standard to a level where it should be in my opinion because they don't have the funds to pay for it. Expecting officers to spend their own money on ammo is not realistic either. I have guys working for me who are barely scraping by as it is.

Pat

I think perspective is a more significant deficiency than money. Since qualifications are designed around the lowest common denominator many have no idea about what "good" even looks like. It builds a false confidence and ego about expertise which comes crashing down the second they step onto the range at a dynamic pistol competition with shooters who have more understanding of what good looks like. I have them upmost respect for our Law Enforcement officers. I also truly admire the ones who have the confidence (and sometimes humility) to step on the range side by side with the civilians who arrived pushing the limits of speed and accuracy with pistols, rifles, shotguns, and etc. A dear Federal LE friend of mine not only attended matches frequently but he always shot his duty gun with full-power service ammo. He also stressed accuracy whenever he approached a stage. I always felt that by doing this he was taking his responsibility to protect and defend to the next level. I certainly know that if my life was in jeopardy and I couldn't take care of it myself that he is the first one that I would hope to see exiting the SWAT transport.

One thing we have going for us is the average dirt bag is worse in skill and training generally. Our administrators are betting our lives on the facts that most cops don't get into shootings so they don't think its worth spending much money on the training.

Pat

[sheepdog566]

Recenly my department has been big on community outreach programs. To take advantage of this I started a department shooting team to compete in USPSA pistol and 3 gun events. The idea is to get out and mingle with those involved in the shooting sports. Team members get time off to shoot and ammo provided. Out if 300 officers I maybe have 3-4 active shooters.

[mwc]

I stand by my statement. The act of shooting (firing a shot and hitting what your aiming at), the average cop is as good as the average USPSA shooter.

The average cop will not beat the average USPSA shooter in a USPSA match because he/she doesn't train that way or know to move and transition.

The average USPSA shooter would get themselves killed on the street if they only used what they learned in USPSA to defend themselves.

Its one of those apples to oranges things.

I didn't start shooting USPSA until after I retired from law enforcement, because under stress you do what you've trained to do. Once I started though, it wasn't my shooting that slowed me down...it was the transitions and just learning the rules and tricks of the game.

[RangerTrace]

I stand by my statement. The act of shooting (firing a shot and hitting what your aiming at), the average cop is as good as the average USPSA shooter.

The average cop will not beat the average USPSA shooter in a USPSA match because he/she doesn't train that way or know to move and transition.

The average USPSA shooter would get themselves killed on the street if they only used what they learned in USPSA to defend themselves.

Its one of those apples to oranges things.

I didn't start shooting USPSA until after I retired from law enforcement, because under stress you do what you've trained to do. Once I started though, it wasn't my shooting that slowed me down...it was the transitions and just learning the rules and tricks of the game.

I tend to disagree with you on that point. You're average USPSA shooters should be able to draw and put a round on target in less than 1.5 seconds. That would win most gunfights. Of course is they miss and immediately unload and show clear.........we have a problem!!

[alma]

So what are those additional skills that USPSA shooters need to learn to avoid getting killed by all of those dangerous hardwired skills like the ability to move, shoot accurately at speed, and react dynamically today changing environments?

I think that there are certainly some important tactics that should be followed assuming targets are shooting back but feel that those tactics are not at odds with the raw skills developed by USPSA shooters. Just because you can shoot an El Presidente doesn't mean that a USPSA shooter would fall back to that in any given situation. Despite emphasis on cover I think IDPA shooters might be worse off since there is much more dictation of stage procedure and fewer opportunities for shooters to solve the problems and react to changes in a dynamic way.

[grapemeister]

I stand by my statement. The act of shooting (firing a shot and hitting what your aiming at), the average cop is as good as the average USPSA shooter.

The average cop will not beat the average USPSA shooter in a USPSA match because he/she doesn't train that way or know to move and transition.

The average USPSA shooter would get themselves killed on the street if they only used what they learned in USPSA to defend themselves.

Its one of those apples to oranges things.

I didn't start shooting USPSA until after I retired from law enforcement, because under stress you do what you've trained to do. Once I started though, it wasn't my shooting that slowed me down...it was the transitions and just learning the rules and tricks of the game.

I tend to disagree with you on that point. You're average USPSA shooters should be able to draw and put a round on target in less than 1.5 seconds. That would win most gunfights. Of course is they miss and immediately unload and show clear.........we have a problem!!

You're kidding right? Maybe you're right about the average USPSA/IPSC draw time from a competition rig, but very few would be able to do that from a law enforcement rig. Again, and like others have been pointed out, when comparing what we do in USPSA to Officer safety practices and tactics, it really is comparing apples to oranges. I agree with what previous posters stated in that the average USPSA shooter would have a hard time surviving on the street with out the benefit of some kind of specialized training, other than USPSA.

Edited April 23, 2014 by grapemeister

[RangerTrace]

I stand by my statement. The act of shooting (firing a shot and hitting what your aiming at), the average cop is as good as the average USPSA shooter.

The average cop will not beat the average USPSA shooter in a USPSA match because he/she doesn't train that way or know to move and transition.

The average USPSA shooter would get themselves killed on the street if they only used what they learned in USPSA to defend themselves.

Its one of those apples to oranges things.

I didn't start shooting USPSA until after I retired from law enforcement, because under stress you do what you've trained to do. Once I started though, it wasn't my shooting that slowed me down...it was the transitions and just learning the rules and tricks of the game.

I tend to disagree with you on that point. You're average USPSA shooters should be able to draw and put a round on target in less than 1.5 seconds. That would win most gunfights. Of course is they miss and immediately unload and show clear.........we have a problem!!

You're kidding right? Maybe you're right about the average USPSA/IPSC draw time from a competition rig, but very few would be able to do that from a law enforcement rig. Again, and like others have been pointed out, when comparing what we do in USPSA to Officer safety practices and tactics, it really is comparing apples to oranges. I agree with what previous posters stated in that the average USPSA shooter would have a hard time surviving on the street with out the benefit of some kind of specialized training, other than USPSA.

No I'm not kidding. I've been a cop for 23 years and I've been to a lot of firearms training schools and I'm a firearms instructor. For the average street cops, which make up the bulk of the police force, the specialized training you speak of, doesn't really exist. SWAT operators are a totally different animal when it comes to tactics and training.

[grapemeister]

I stand by my statement. The act of shooting (firing a shot and hitting what your aiming at), the average cop is as good as the average USPSA shooter.

The average cop will not beat the average USPSA shooter in a USPSA match because he/she doesn't train that way or know to move and transition.

The average USPSA shooter would get themselves killed on the street if they only used what they learned in USPSA to defend themselves.

Its one of those apples to oranges things.

I didn't start shooting USPSA until after I retired from law enforcement, because under stress you do what you've trained to do. Once I started though, it wasn't my shooting that slowed me down...it was the transitions and just learning the rules and tricks of the game.

I tend to disagree with you on that point. You're average USPSA shooters should be able to draw and put a round on target in less than 1.5 seconds. That would win most gunfights. Of course is they miss and immediately unload and show clear.........we have a problem!!

You're kidding right? Maybe you're right about the average USPSA/IPSC draw time from a competition rig, but very few would be able to do that from a law enforcement rig. Again, and like others have been pointed out, when comparing what we do in USPSA to Officer safety practices and tactics, it really is comparing apples to oranges. I agree with what previous posters stated in that the average USPSA shooter would have a hard time surviving on the street with out the benefit of some kind of specialized training, other than USPSA.

No I'm not kidding. I've been a cop for 23 years and I've been to a lot of firearms training schools and I'm a firearms instructor. For the average street cops, which make up the bulk of the police force, the specialized training you speak of, doesn't really exist. SWAT operators are a totally different animal when it comes to tactics and training.

Well, I guess different parts of the country have the benefit of better training. What I'm talking about is basic stuff I learned in the academy 25 years ago, not SWAT training. Stuff like, proper interview stance, gun retention, the use of cover, including the different types of cover and how to use it; , conserving ammo, proper room and building clearing etc., etc., and one of the most valuable lessons was learning that I'll never be fast enough to out draw a drawn gun.

I will still argue that what we practice in USPSA/IPSC, I general, would get you killed on the job. With your experience I don't see how you could argue with that. I will agree, assuming you believe the same thing, that on average we have a lot better shooters in USPSA than in the law enforcement community.

[RangerTrace]

"Well, I guess different parts of the country have the benefit of better training. What I'm talking about is basic stuff I learned in the academy 25 years ago, not SWAT training. Stuff like, proper interview stance, gun retention, the use of cover, including the different types of cover and how to use it; , conserving ammo, proper room and building clearing etc., etc., and one of the most valuable lessons was learning that I'll never be fast enough to out draw a drawn gun. "

Sure, all of that is in my opinion very basic and is taught in the Academy. And maybe I've twisted this thread around in my head, but I thought we were debating how USPSA style shooting would get you killed on the street. All I'm trying to say is this, (and you can't possibly cover all the possible scenarios) if your average street cop and your average USPSA shooter (B class) encountered a threat, (for arguments sake let's say a traffic stop where the driver pulls a gun) I believe the USPSA shooter's ability to draw quickly and put shots on target would put them at an advantage over the average cop. FWIW, I'm not knocking cops. I just know what practicing USPSA shooting skills has done for me. How can shooting fast and accurately, reloading and clearing malfunctions quickly, along with shooting on the move, do anything but help in a deadly force situation?

[grapemeister]

"Well, I guess different parts of the country have the benefit of better training. What I'm talking about is basic stuff I learned in the academy 25 years ago, not SWAT training. Stuff like, proper interview stance, gun retention, the use of cover, including the different types of cover and how to use it; , conserving ammo, proper room and building clearing etc., etc., and one of the most valuable lessons was learning that I'll never be fast enough to out draw a drawn gun. "

Sure, all of that is in my opinion very basic and is taught in the Academy. And maybe I've twisted this thread around in my head, but I thought we were debating how USPSA style shooting would get you killed on the street. All I'm trying to say is this, (and you can't possibly cover all the possible scenarios) if your average street cop and your average USPSA shooter (B class) encountered a threat, (for arguments sake let's say a traffic stop where the driver pulls a gun) I believe the USPSA shooter's ability to draw quickly and put shots on target would put them at an advantage over the average cop. FWIW, I'm not knocking cops. I just know what practicing USPSA shooting skills has done for me. How can shooting fast and accurately, reloading and clearing malfunctions quickly, along with shooting on the move, do anything but help in a deadly force situation?

I agree with you on that. The training and practice is certainly lacking in the areas you mentioned. I was fortunate enough to work at a very well funded department. Although we did more training than a lot of departments in our area, it wasn't enough, and as often as it should have been. We were fortunate in that our lead firearms instructor and range master was involved in USPSA. He would on occasion set up USPSA style courses of fire and it was a real eye opener to me as an impressionable young officer, and the different types of basic gun handling skills that should be practiced. Unfortunately that kind of training only happened a couple of times a year. It wasn't for the lack of funds, it was because of the lack of interest. We could all go practice on our own, but very few of us did. I wish back then I would have practiced more. I had at my disposal all the ammo I wanted. The instructor invited me to get involved in USPSA, but at the time I was only interested in chasing women, drinking beer, and driving fast cars...off duty, of course.

Cheers

[alma]

...And maybe I've twisted this thread around in my head, but I thought we were debating how . How can shooting fast and accurately, reloading and clearing malfunctions quickly, along with shooting on the move, do anything but help in a deadly force situation?

Apparently being very competent with the manipulation and use of a firearm is the type of stuff that will get you killed on the street.

[grapemeister]

So what are those additional skills that USPSA shooters need to learn to avoid getting killed by all of those dangerous hardwired skills like the ability to move, shoot accurately at speed, and react dynamically today changing environments?

I think that there are certainly some important tactics that should be followed assuming targets are shooting back but feel that those tactics are not at odds with the raw skills developed by USPSA shooters. Just because you can shoot an El Presidente doesn't mean that a USPSA shooter would fall back to that in any given situation. Despite emphasis on cover I think IDPA shooters might be worse off since there is much more dictation of stage procedure and fewer opportunities for shooters to solve the problems and react to changes in a dynamic way.

But, at least IDPA shooters have ingrained in them, or at least have exposure to the importance of the use of cover. I'm not a big IDPA fan for some of the reasons you stated, but their chance of survival, I think, would be greater than someone that has never given any thought to the importance of cover, conserving ammo, tactical engagement of targets, etc.

It didn't come through very clear in my previous post, but my argument is that in USPSA we don't give any importance to the use of cover, conserving ammo, tactical (order of) engagement of targets, etc, etc,, and that in a real world scenario as a cop I'm not going to be running and gunning in the wide open taking out targets like I'm bullet proof. Looks pretty cool in the movies, and in a nice USPSA course of fire, but that's no how it's going to work in real life.

The gun handling skills we practice in USPSA, on the other hand, are absolutely invaluable. I can't imagine reaching the level of shooting required for C or B class with out USPSA or similar shooting sport, let alone what is required for even higher levels of shooting.

[RammerJammer]

Taking cover is like holding your breath underwater. You do it without thought or hesitation and quite well too.

[mwc]

I guess I started this whole thing when I stated, "The average USPSA shooter would get themselves killed on the street if they only used what they learned in USPSA to defend themselves." (note I said only used)

Please let me clarifiy. Gun handling skills are not what I was referring to.

In USPSA we use a handgun as an offensive weapon against multiple targets in which we get to shoot twice and transition on to the next target in less than .20 of a second without any regard as to whether we actually stopped that threat. In the real world you cannot do that. People don't die instantly when shoot them in 1.5 seconds from the holster, unless you shoot them in the head and thats not always a certainty.

I have seen a man take a round of 000 buck shot in the chest and still live another 3 minutes(He never dropped the rifle he was carrying). Thats a long time to return fire. If you stand toe to toe with someone and your faster from the holster by even 3 seconds lets say, odds are that you are still going to be shot or at least shot at unless you get out of there. You definately don't want to turn your back on someone unless you know he/she can't hurt you or someone else. A law enforcement officer will always want to be a little bit more delibrate when using deadly force because of that.

A handgun is a defensive weapon used to get ourselves out of immediate danger and to a long gun of some sort to go on the offense if need be.

Having great hangun handling skills learned in playing the game of USPSA will only help you in a deadly force situation, but the game itself does not translate well to real world situations is what I meant to say.

[mwc]

...And maybe I've twisted this thread around in my head, but I thought we were debating how . How can shooting fast and accurately, reloading and clearing malfunctions quickly, along with shooting on the move, do anything but help in a deadly force situation?

Apparently being very competent with the manipulation and use of a firearm is the type of stuff that will get you killed on the street.

It will if thats all you know. Knowing how to use a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

Edited April 23, 2014 by mwc

[alma]

Perhaps, but I think it much easier to learn tactics than it is to become an expert shooter. Both are examples of key skills that would be combined in combat scenarios and strength in one should help you to successfully execute the other.

[Alaskapopo]

Having good skills helps but tactics are more important. They have not found by studying actual shootings that there is no correlation between officers qualification scores an actual shooting results.

Pat

[theblacknight]

Part of the problem is what passes for a qualification course in any states. For the most part if you can get most of 50 rounds somewhere on a B-27 target, which is a big piece of paper, you qualify. Might even be called an "expert". This does not make an officer try harder and it gives them a false and possibly deadly sense of security and ability. The time limits are still pretty close to what they used when officers were using wheelguns. When they go to any kind of match it is an eye opener and some are to intimidated to try again or can't afford the ammo to get better. Lots of folks don't realize that and as was just stated ammo is among the first things cut in the budget. Most of the matches I go to like to see LE come out and shoot and will take the time to help them get better.

As you implied the problem is money or rather a lack of. Training time is expensive as is ammo and unfortunately with the current economy things are not likely to get better any time soon. Most administrators will not allow you to set the standard to a level where it should be in my opinion because they don't have the funds to pay for it. Expecting officers to spend their own money on ammo is not realistic either. I have guys working for me who are barely scraping by as it is.

Pat

I think perspective is a more significant deficiency than money. Since qualifications are designed around the lowest common denominator many have no idea about what "good" even looks like. It builds a false confidence and ego about expertise which comes crashing down the second they step onto the range at a dynamic pistol competition with shooters who have more understanding of what good looks like. I have them upmost respect for our Law Enforcement officers. I also truly admire the ones who have the confidence (and sometimes humility) to step on the range side by side with the civilians who arrived pushing the limits of speed and accuracy with pistols, rifles, shotguns, and etc. A dear Federal LE friend of mine not only attended matches frequently but he always shot his duty gun with full-power service ammo. He also stressed accuracy whenever he approached a stage. I always felt that by doing this he was taking his responsibility to protect and defend to the next level. I certainly know that if my life was in jeopardy and I couldn't take care of it myself that he is the first one that I would hope to see exiting the SWAT transport.

What you are basically doing is expecting every cop to make shooting his hobby. Not everyone is a gun person.

If we wanted to be real, cars are more dangerous statistically then guns are, so wouldn't we want every cop to go autocrossing?

[JurisDoktor]

Reviving this thread so to speak. I agree that most cops probably are not that interested in perfecting their pistol shooting skills. However, some of the top shooters are Police Officers or former Police Officers. Some guy I think his name is Robert Vogel comes to mind. Also Ernest Langdon, Ron Avery to name a few......

[Steve RA]

My shooting buddy is a deputy sheriff and he hasn't been very impressed with the training they get. Some of them are good shots but the vast majority are not. The good ones are all enthusiasts - shooting and hunting - most of the rest feel the firearm is just added weight on their belts.

[OPENB]

This is precisely why I DON'T use my duty gear in USPSA. I don't want to confuse a game for training. I tell guys that at work that some of the components of my sport translate to work, like the gunhandling skills, but the tactics do not. USPSA is not training, and if you carry a gun for a living, please don't think it is. Get real training. Firearms schools have popped up like mushrooms after a rainy spring. Choose wisely.

I like the hammer analogy. But, as cops, our handgun is a hammer, and most of the "carpenters" I work with don't know how to swing it very well. I am referring to gun manipulation skills and accuracy, not necessarily tactics.

[Alaskapopo]

My shooting buddy is a deputy sheriff and he hasn't been very impressed with the training they get. Some of them are good shots but the vast majority are not. The good ones are all enthusiasts - shooting and hunting - most of the rest feel the firearm is just added weight on their belts.

So you are speaking second hand based on the experience of a friend who works at one department. Sorry but that is not a good sample size to judge all cops by. Even the non gun enthusiasts know that the firearm is certainly more than dead weight. It may well allow you to save your own life one day. We all know that.

Pat

Edited May 19, 2014 by Alaskapopo

[Steve RA]

Well, they may know it but by the lack of shooting ability and desire to go to the range and improve, they certainly don't show it. Also, if the training they get for all the other things involved in a possible shooting is as good and interesting as the shooting part of it, I'm not very impressed.

I realize that the units more expected to run into trouble probably get a greater ammunition allowance and better training - such as an Alaskan State Trooper or a swat team - than the average run of the mill patrol person. You may be influenced by the unit you are in, as I'm influenced by the local sheriff's department.

I haven't just heard about the prowess of the local unit as I've been to the Sheriff Depts range a number of times and observed them first hand.

[Dkrad1935]

I don't know for sure the numbers, but when I was in the army I read that something like close to a million bullets were fired in combat for every enemy killed. I am sure there is a similar statistic in US Law enforcement. Maybe the number is a thousand instead of a million but it's a pretty good sample size. Haha.

It seems like basketball - some take three pointers but usually teams work to gets the ball to a player close to the net (tactics). You don't have to be a LEO to learn, understand or master tactics. Some are common sense, all are easily found in FM's etc etc.

The tactics probably preempt the shooting skills if the before mentions stats are believed.

Either way this is a useless pissing contest. Leo vs non Leo. On average both are probably pretty average. Doesn't mean that I am not still am above average ninja. Just sayin

[rugerp89ipsc]

So is this a good thread to help pimp the marksmanship team I helped start at my department?

Despite what has been said, and there are lot of valid points, we can all agree that more training is a good thing. Whether it's weapon manipulation, marksmanship or tactics, something is better than nothing. Gunfighting is more than accurate rounds on target, but that certainly is a deciding factor in gun fights. Rather than argue points that have already been made, I would just like to suggest er all do the same thing for cops that we should be doing for anyone interested in firearms. Encourage them, try to get them to a match and then be humble in helping them. Grow the shooting sports. Getting LE/MIL guys involved in shooting sports is obviously going to have a positive effect on their survivability plus its great PR for the shooting community. Use encouragement and not scorn. We all want the same goal. I knew I wanted to be a cop for a long time and just got lucky that Don Hardy took me to my first shooting match. I got even luckier when he, Trapr, Robert, Jack, Sheldon, Marisa, Roy and all the other SA/Austin area folks took time and energy to help teach me how to shoot. I would have never known anything like USPSA even existed otherwise. In turn I think I have a positive influence on officers I work with and have trained. It's good to see so many people passionate about training and staying safe. We all live in the same neighborhoods and we all have a responsibility to look out for each other.

This certainly has been an interesting read. If anyone is interested in what we're doing, go take a look at our website and if you do Facebook, give us a "like" please. www.apdmarksmanshipteam.org