Shadow Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 (edited) Nimitz- That is correct, although depending on the match, its the top 16 (or whatever) and then starts as you listed, usually to 3rd place in each class if the match is big enough (nationals). Edited to add: sometimes throw in high female/junior/etc Edited January 30, 2014 by Shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Prize tables should be random drawing. Compete with yourselves. Not the poor bastard trying to save up to get a press. And why the hell does anyone care about sandbagging, grand bagging or tea bagging for that matter! Lets build each other up not squabble over trinkets. WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Class winners should get a trophy. Hell I came up racing motocross and I loved each and every one of those cheap ass pieces of plastic. But not so much that I'd tank a race to "keep on slaying it in 125 novice" and even if I did BFD! Really .... I see grown ass men wingeing about someone using dummy rounds in a classifier?!? Ugh. We all pay the same coin to shoot a major, make the swag prizes random and give awards to finishers. I think that would eliminate this drama... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 As far as changing the current classification system.... Solution looking for a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 There is an important point buried in your replies ... You said that you'd never tank a race to get a class win ... That's my exact point. If our classification system was match based (read race-based in your other sport) vice a single stage based we wouldn't be having this discussion. If the only way to get a classification was based on your match results then no one would sandbag ... The other solution is simply bump class winners to the next class after they get a class win. You get to sandbag exactly once, problem solved .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 The solution is bump class winners to the next class. You get to sandbag exactly once, problem solved .... +1. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 There is an important point buried in your replies ... You said that you'd never tank a race to get a class win ... That's my exact point. If our classification system was match based (read race-based in your other sport) vice a single stage based we wouldn't be having this discussion. If the only way to get a classification was based on your match results then no one would sandbag ... The other solution is simply bump class winners to the next class after they get a class win. You get to sandbag exactly once, problem solved .... It used to work that way for major matches. If GMs were present in your division, you finished in the top three in your class, and you shot a percentage that was in the next higher class, you got bumped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 And why did we change that ....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 It still does at Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 ... is simply bump class winners to the next class after they get a class win. You get to sandbag exactly once, problem solved ....[/quote Bump solves the issue!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 The solution is bump class winners to the next class. You get to sandbag exactly once, problem solved .... +1. Exactly. How would we handle the issue of differing skill levels at local matches. If your local range is rio salado forget about moving up. That is a deep talent pool vs a small club in an area with a short season. A moderately skilled shooter there would move up super fast. If you say this would only apply to majors... A lot of guys can never shoot em or at most one per year. And if that match is their bad hair day.... Kerplunk... Better luck next year. That sucks. I think there is more benefit in having a reasonably predictable, locally accessible and regionally consistent system for allowing class advancement to encourage personal growth and motivate newcomers to our sport than there is benefit is revamping our system to prevent a misguided, albeit harmless behavior from a small group who know better. I have yet to meet a competitor who does not find joy in class advancement, especially at the lower levels. That carrot provides the primary motivating goal ( lets say in a newcomers first season) to participate, learn to train, and become immersed in shooting sports which is awesome and benefits us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Idpa has their classification system combined with bumps at major matches. Sandbagging would be way easier in their system, so the match bump solves it there, as it would in USPSA. Granted, it doesn't do anything for the local scene, but there aren't "awards" for local matches that encourages sandbagging.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Keep the current system and add level II/III bumps. Idpa has their classification system combined with bumps at major matches. Sandbagging would be way easier in their system, so the match bump solves it there, as it would in USPSA. Granted, it doesn't do anything for the local scene, but there aren't "awards" for local matches that encourages sandbagging.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Ultimo-hombre is pretty darned smart for a fireman. Prize tables should be random drawing. Class winners should get a trophy. Really, that says it all. It would disappoint the people that are hoping to stay in a lower class a little longer (or enter something other than their best-classed division) and win a frame kit or a gun at a major, but that doesn't make me sad. But I'm ok with class-finish-based-prizes too. It is entertaining to mercilessly mock those who care about beating all the other people who didn't practice enough to get bumped up a class. Edited January 30, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cohland Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 What about the millions and millions of guys who only shoot local matches?? Thanks for mentioning that (us). I'm one of those who shoots only local matches, and I like the current system. It reminds me somewhat of the USGA handicap system, there is a standard (the courses are something like the classifiers) and you can compete against yourself by just plugging away in local matches. It works for me, and apparently many others. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) You don't need to change the classification system per say, just how it is exploited. Nothing to do at the local level as was mentioned earlier but for all level 2 and 3 matches, not just the Nationals, you bump for the top 3 in class if they shoot at the next class percentage. A very simple change that disturbs no one but the sand baggers ... Now that that is settled let's get back to the important topic of prize tables ... All prize tables should be random drawso that the rank and file shooter who has made the effort to attend has a chance at a prize for his trouble ... And sponsors have their products go to folks who will use them, not just sell them when they get home ..... Edited January 30, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 All the prize tables should be random draw??? Say WHAT? I think that the top guy in each division should get a trip to the prize table first. Let's say this is an area match, and that Limited has the most shooters, followed by open, followed by production, and so on. First place limited should get to go to the prize table first, then first open, then first production, and so on. There would be some cutoff for a min number of shooters in each division for the #1 guy to make a trip to the prize table. If the division is really heavily populated then 2nd and 3rd overall should get prize tanle trips too. Then if there is stuff still on the tables that would get random'ed off. That is about the fairest way I can think of rewarding people. You're still motivating the top notch people to keep working at it and attending your match next year. You're also NOT rewarding mediocrity or the folks who are best at sandbagging. But like I said before, put that info on the match entry form, right before people fill in the blanks with their info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 There is an important point buried in your replies ... You said that you'd never tank a race to get a class win ... That's my exact point. If our classification system was match based (read race-based in your other sport) vice a single stage based we wouldn't be having this discussion. If the only way to get a classification was based on your match results then no one would sandbag ... The other solution is simply bump class winners to the next class after they get a class win. You get to sandbag exactly once, problem solved .... It used to work that way for major matches. If GMs were present in your division, you finished in the top three in your class, and you shot a percentage that was in the next higher class, you got bumped up. This is still in the rules for the top two in a class: from the new rule book: "Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class, even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class may result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class. In addition, if you score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediate-ly moved to Grand Master class for that division. " If we just use this rule more frequently we are GTG as far as I am concerned. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I knew eventually someone would read the existing rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 The solution is bump class winners to the next class. You get to sandbag exactly once, problem solved .... It used to work that way for major matches. This is still in the rules for the top two in a class: from the new rule book: " Winning first or second in class at an Area Championship may result in promotion " If we just use this rule more frequently we are GTG as far as I am concerned. Eric I know of quite a few specific examples of this rule NOT being used ... People who have won in the 1st or 2nd place, and NOT being bumped to the next level. You're right - using this rule would solve most of the problem, all by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 I'm good with that except for that mealy mouthed nonsense about "may result ...". Just apply the last line of the rule you quoted and I'm good ...." ... If you score .... You will immediately be moved to ...." Exactly who gets to decide if you get bumped or not if you meet the criteria ? As for prize tables I'm ok with the division winners getting first crack and maybe #2 if the div is really big and then random everyone else, this way sandbaggers get no leverage .... You'd also have to randomly pick which div winner got to go 1st ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I knew eventually someone would read the existing rules. Not that they are strictly enforced or followed to the letter when it comes to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 And why did we change that ....? We haven't. Match Directors can still request that, but you also need the GMs to shoot the match and finish well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I'm good with that except for that mealy mouthed nonsense about "may result ...". Just apply the last line of the rule you quoted and I'm good ...." ... If you score .... You will immediately be moved to ...." Exactly who gets to decide if you get bumped or not if you meet the criteria ? As for prize tables I'm ok with the division winners getting first crack and maybe #2 if the div is really big and then random everyone else, this way sandbaggers get no leverage .... You'd also have to randomly pick which div winner got to go 1st ... You've nailed the problem! This should be spelled out somewhere in USPSA policy and enforced consistently. As a side note, Nik brought up the old saw that's always been there that the GMs competing in the division have to do well for this to be enforced. Why? If there are at least 3 GM's competeing and an M beats them for HOA, so what? Class winners should still get bumped (and probably the M that won as well if its an area match). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 It may be only a matter of time until a Federal lawsuit commences claiming the mass of USPSA shooters as victims. http://www.forthepeople.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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