LSnSC Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Is the division dead? I enjoy it much more than the others, but participation is very low to non existant at the matches I attend. Is it too expensive? Too difficult? No Pro recognition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 All those things I think! Though JJ thinks that allowing 9mm in Heavy Metal Scope is part of the problem as well! But there is always He-Man National 3-Gun Championship May 10-11, 2014 at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, New Mexico. The match is focused on He-Men and the big guns! .308 with real irons, or scoped, and .45 and pump 12 gauge!! We do have some wee-men, like me, but they are treated as second class citizens and generally made fun of! 7 natural terrain stages. Lot's of fun! Side He-Man Shoot-Off on Saturday on the High Power Silhouette Range that is always a hoot! http://home.earthlink.net/~johnson3gun/ Also, Rocky Mountain 3-Gun has a growing number of He-Man Iron for the last couple years. So we're keeping it alive the best we can! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Is the division dead? I enjoy it much more than the others, but participation is very low to non existant at the matches I attend. Is it too expensive? Too difficult? No Pro recognition? Do you mean real Irons, or a "Irons with 1X optics" ? I shot my M1A at the 2012 He Man, but, lack of time behind the gun in varying lighting drove me nuts! Overcast conditions were easy shooting, bright sunlight was the problem. So, it is more difficult than shooting optics. Given the loading component situation, particularly powder, that doesn't help either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yes, it is dead everywhere but RM3G and He man Nationals as far as I can see. Shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I try to refrain from any discussion about poor old HM Iron division but....but....it may make a small comeback within the 3GN Regional events. Iron 308, pump 12 and 45acp. New twist....1 hit anywhere for 308 and 45 on paper and that target is done! Potentially less ammo expended and a increase in speed. I may be dipping back into this pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yeah, in truth I love spec divisions which are highly technical, but I am the exception. Most 3gunners want to race and go fast. It's the same reason Single Stack never really took off in USPSA (my favorite division). He Man Irons is the ultimate shooting spec division and it is not cheap. I spend a lot of time and money practicing iron sights because they are a hard earned skill. Even when you show up at HeMan Nats the scope division is larger than the iron division, because the irons just take so much more time to learn. I've got 5x more rounds down range with irons than scope or 1x glass combined and I am still faster and more proficient with glass. I relish the challenge though. The journey is what's important to me, so I keep banging away at it. I love the purity of the irons requirement, but I think that as long as irons are required, the division will continue to experience stagnant growth. Just my opinion and of course it, isn't worth anything. I would love to see the division stay irons and experience some growth, but the general populace just don't like irons. Allowing 1x glass would be disagreeable to a few of us purist, but it would allow the division to grow and keep it alive, which would be good. Again, just my opinion. Off track from the OP topic and this is an old discussion but I agree with JJ on the whole HM lite beer thing. Autoloaders, 9mm's and sometimes even 30cal (rather than 7.62 nato) allowances are pointless and don't provide any division growth incentive. it encourages competitors to dabble in the division rather than commit to it. Autoloader's are one thing, but 9mm's make Eddie role in his grave. But we are really talking apples to oranges anyways. "HeMan" implies a specific rule set which is still used at RM3G. "Heavy Metal" is where the rules get all minced up and blurred from match to match. More specifically Heavy Metal scope division, which has a wide range of equipment specs. I'm sure that at some future match, I will end up shooting that division with alternate equipment, but I'd rather be shooting HeMan Irons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I used to shoot He-Man Irons with an M1A. Several things made me change to shooting with a scope. 1) My eyes started to go. 2) The targets were set farther out and more difficult to see. Now I have the cataracts removed and can see much better I have considered going back to irons. Drawbacks: On day one, stage one, the targets are freshly painted and the backers are bright and not shot up. That does not stay the same. Depending on the match, the backers may never be changed, and the targets never painted. I went to scope not to make me shoot better, but so I could see the targets better. I carried an M14 and M16 for a long time and never had optics on them. Irons are quicker. there is more to consider, but that's all I have for right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSnSC Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 I hope you're right Mr Kelly. Im signed up to shoot HM at the SE Regional, Freedom Munitions match, and the Tarheel 3 Gun. There are only two of us signed up for the Freedom Munitions Match. I havent seen the sqaud lists for the other two yet. I really hated to see 3GN kill the divisionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigS. Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I don't think the division is ready to have dirt thrown on it just yet. As of last count the SMM3G match has 21 Heavy metal competitors ! But only 5 in Heavy Scope and not all the sponsored competitors are registered yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Pat, If those rules where tried at more matches then it might spur more participation in the division, but I have yet to attend a match where they where tried. Are competitors then scored heads up with the other divisions or are they still segregated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I don't think the division is ready to have dirt thrown on it just yet. As of last count the SMM3G match has 21 Heavy metal competitors ! But only 5 in Heavy Scope and not all the sponsored competitors are registered yet. If I make it off the waiting list you will have another HM Iron shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm going back to Heavy Irons for a few matches this year. Why? Because if it was easy everyone would be shooting it. And I like tearing stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 This above is what may save the division. There is a certain draw to shooting big guns and doing things the hard way...at least for some. This is America after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 IF there where 5 or six guys shooting it at every match that I go to that would be great, but it is not even offered as a division at most of them. Limited seems to be growing, and drawing more shooters so that is where I have been playing. But my love of kicking my own ass is too great, and I find myself yearning to shot the manly guns in limited, or even trooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 He-Man is my favorite division also. I love to shoot my iron sighted rifle, Nova pump and my old 1911. You do have to make a commitment to the division though. I would like to see one A/B/C hit (or two anywhere) to neutralize with the bigger guns, one anywhere seems too sloppy to me. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Bryan, Would you shoot your M1A at FNH? The skinny sammies were almost invisible at times, even with optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I did at FNH in '11. You're right, 4" wide auto poppers are not iron friendly over 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Or against the berms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) HMMMMM??? Want to kill entire divisions(Ltd. HvyMT.)?? Why just don't paint targets, and hide them in shadows when possible! It has worked wonders for the non magnified divisions for a long time! Remeber if you can't see it to hit it, it isn't fun. People like to have fun, not be frustrated, especially after spending a good bit of $$$ to go to the show. This has started to be a divisor for me, and there are many matches I just won't go to anymore...which is great for folks on the waiting list Edited January 24, 2014 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 HMMMMM??? Want to kill entire divisions(Ltd. HvyMT.)?? Why just don't paint targets, and hide them in shadows when possible! It has worked wonders for the non magnified divisions for a long time! Remeber if you can't see it to hit it, it isn't fun. People like to have fun, not be frustrated, especially after spending a good bit of $$$ to go to the show. This has started to be a divisor for me, and there are many matches I just won't go to anymore...which is great for folks on the waiting list Great for the people on the finial results list too I think heavy irons, heavy metal what ever you want to call it is a fun division. Most people want to shoot it and have fun but when it comes to deciding on a division to "pick one and stick with it" most people go the easiest/cheapest way, and that's Tac Scope. Path of least resistance if you will. In the interest of growing the sport, as many say, our local club has a decided to include Heavy Metal, a division that includes the iron sighted 308 and up rifle. If the shooter wants to try it out, he/she can do it at a lower cost/local level. Who knows maybe that shooter will be one of the few that sticks with it. That's why, I think, most heavy shooters stay at the local level. People are lazy when it comes to having fun. If it's to hard then it's not fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 HMMMMM??? Want to kill entire divisions(Ltd. HvyMT.)?? Why just don't paint targets, and hide them in shadows when possible! It has worked wonders for the non magnified divisions for a long time! Remeber if you can't see it to hit it, it isn't fun. People like to have fun, not be frustrated, especially after spending a good bit of $$$ to go to the show. This has started to be a divisor for me, and there are many matches I just won't go to anymore...which is great for folks on the waiting list Kurt has stated my biggest reason for giving up on the Iron sight divisions...I get really bummed about not being able to see targets. Often I could not see them well enough just looking for them without a set of sights in front of my eyes! I still won most of those events but the fun was being drained due to MD's or Stage Designers not giving enough consideration to Iron sight shooters. I am hoping that the regional 3GN events do not fail in this regard. If they do...I will say so here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm spoiled I guess. I shoot the Johnson matches at the Whittington Center and of course HM Nats and RM3G. Being an iron shooter, JJ always tries to do a good job on target presentation. He also puts strobes on the targets further than 400yds. We usually see the flash before we hear the steel. During the big matches we RO's are encouraged to paint and replace the backers as often as we need to, to keep the presentations good and consistent. I recently shot another local match, which was a really fun match with good stages. Out of 50 shooters, I was the only HM Irons guy and I may have been the only irons shooter there. The 200yd targets were unpainted with no backers, against a light colored sandy berm. They were all difficult to see, but one I couldn't see at all. I got through it and still enjoyed the stage overall, but those low viz targets were a bit of a chore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMSI Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Where are the next yr rules posted? will 3GN HM now be true irons or 1x optic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Co-exprs, Local expense to shoot "at" targets I can't see is different from $1500+ to travel to a Major with the same issues. Bit of a chore or a little frustrating don't cut it. I can hit (rather quickly) any target I can get a good visual on. Being able to shoot well goes right out the window when you can't see what you are shooting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Slowsure, I guess I have been lazy all these years shooting those real easy iron sights . For me the "fun" is feeling a sense of accomplishment when I can beat a bunch of "Glass Weenies". Hell I even won an Area match high over all once....out of every division...but that was in the past where they used to think about good target presentation. All things end, both good and bad, but I do miss it so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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