MOR Equipment setup

[Religious Shooter]

How did you arrive at $2500 for removable mags. My gun is a Rem 700 PSS ($650) and an AICS chassis ($550). I can get an easy $200 for the take off stock and by my math that's $1000. I was actually waiting for a Rem 700 VS (same action as the PSS) which would knock another $100 of the gun price.

I'm talking about new and factory AICS and Tubb rifles.

http://members.inteliport.net/~blanksguns/

http://www.mcbrosrifles.com/tubb_2000.htm

So say a: AICS/Tubb $3000 - Savage $500 = $2500.00

I wouldn't classify your rifle set-up (alone) as an expensive rig.

That is until you add that USO scope for $2,200.00-$2,500.00. Add a mount and rings for $100-400. You now have a $3,300-$3,900.00+ gun with scope.

You get your accessories for that puppy: bipod $80, Laser Range Finder $100-$600, 3 5-rounders $168, 3 10-rounders $204, wind meter, torque wrench for the AICS, etc. All together $4,500+ to shoot MOR.

Also I haven't priced PSS's lately. But at $650.00 for a PSS I think that's ultra-low. Maybe you can get it at that price in your area? As far as $200.00 for the take-off that's great if you have a buyer. But if you go to a regular Joe Schmoo shooter and tell him you want $200.00 for a PSS take-off stock I don't think their response would be as positive.

As far as classification goes, long range rifles have optics, slings, bi-pods and muzzle brakes. There doesn't seem to be as clear of line to draw for divisions as you there is with production, limited, and open.

The 3G Nationals MOR in Reno had an iron sight division. I think two people participated in that division and a local Socal shooter won that division. So I can honestly say that I shoot with (and sometimes win) against a National champion on a regular basis.

I agree Long Range Rifle really does not have a "glock" type option with respect to cost.

I'd disagree with that. I say you take a look at a Vietnam Era (White Feather) to '85'-ish Marine Sniper's and a common American hunter's set-up... that's your "glock" MOR.

"Glock" MOR class:

- Fixed magazine (or load only it like a fixed-magazine rifle (over the top))

- Mil-Dot or plain reticle scope

- No-compensators

- No-bipod (sock or back-pack/bag OK)

- No laser range finder

- No wind meters

"Open" MOR class:

- Whatever you want to do.

[George]

USPSA already has pretty specific rules on MOR rifle gear. The division are Open and Standard. The specs are in the rifle rulebook section.

Matt is absolutely correct about why you can use what you want to (tolerate actually). Shooters choice, no shame as long as you know the reasons and get the results YOU need.

I am running a cheap hunting rifle that just holds 1 MOA (if I can). The best features are the JP tank brake and the Leupold 3.5-10x30 with target knobs. I have less than $700 in it (including glass cost because it was a junker $150 rifle that shot OK to start). Fixed mag means after my first five I usually chuck-n-shoot if I am staying in place. I will fill with 5 if I get to move a bit, or really want to stay on the scope during a specific engagement.

I am no threat to Matt & ‘Tater’, but I can get my hits and hold up the front of the middle the pack very well. I owe most of it to the muzzle brake, if you can see how far off you were on a first round miss and stay on the scope, you can always nail it with the follow-up. Seeing your miss, is as important as seeing your hit, maybe even more so. Steel is gracious in this respect compared to paper.

--

Regards,

[rhino]

I think there are a lot of us who would just like to participate in such an event. Having the gear to be "competitive" is nice, but for me it's not that big of a deal (nor is it in pistol or 3-Gun).

Where I live, finding a place to actually shoot past 100 yards is not easy. If I plunked down my money for a .308 CZ bolt gun, a mid-range scope, and some decent ammo, I'd still be coming to a match with a 100 yard zero and no idea where I hit past that, much less how to actually engage targets at unknown longer distances with wind and other variables. Even with some ballistic charts and good chrono data, it would be guesswork.

So I'm not in a hurry to get my setup until I can get access to a better range. We have a "new" one that's supposed to be 300 yards available, which will be a big help, but I don't have access to it yet. When I do...

Even then, I won't be bothered by whatever modest setup I choose to use. It's for learning and for fun, and what the other guy's have attached to their bipods won't diminish my experience any.

Maybe we should have separate topics. Have one for the MOR setups that are the "best" for winning the matches, then have one for people with different goals and limitations. I can learn a lot from reading about the $3500 rifles with the $3000 scopes that will help me understand the limitations of the gear I choose to acquire with significantly more restricted budget.

[Religious Shooter]

Well as the story goes, one of the many reasons IDPA was founded was due the problem that the then existing USPSA/IPSC divisions had a rampant equipment race. USPSA sorta fixed it with Production. But I got a feeling the damage has been done. The majority of the new-blood is going to IDPA.

Naturally it looks like we are doing it again with MOR by having another equipment race. Why can't we just learn from the past and do it right the first time? We should have Open/Tactical/Limited divisions in MOR.

Yes a good chunk of us will run with what we have and not care about our placement. But a good number of us will be put off by the appearance that to be competitive in MOR you gotta shell out major $.

There should be an entry-level division where your average hunter can shoot a match and be truly competitive with the equipment that they currently have.

I'll shoot no matter what 'cuz it's fun. But a portion of me would always question... did the guy above me beat me because he is a better shooter... or did he beat me because he has more $ and better equipment?

[paraman1]

One problem with USPSA is the fact that they have a class for EVERYTHING ! I am probably alone in saying this but I dreaded awards cermonies due to the '"Best Junior Senior shooter wearing a black shirt shooting a super ubermagnum from South of the mason dixon" awards . I know they feel it is needed to draw in new shooters but I think that we as shooters need to bring the equipment we can afford or already have and do the best you can . Shooting is the one sport for me where I have always felt it was me against me and really didnt care how it all played out in the end .

I try and build my gear so I can use it in as many competitons as possible and avoid the gun built for one style of match . I guess thats why I have always liked limited since if you didnt want to get caught up in the arms race but had a high cap pistol / AR / Shotgun you could have a lot of fun .

[bgary]

There should be an entry-level division where your average hunter can shoot a match and be truly competitive with the equipment that they currently have

I don't know what it is like in other areas, but last year at the Area-1 3-gun match we had an MOR side match, with targets from 400-700 yards.

Lotsa guys pulling fancy rifles out of hard cases, with expensive-looking mods hanging all over them.

Then this one guy pulls his hunting rifle out of a soft-case and goes to work. Ordinary-looking basic rifle, skinny hunting-profile barrel, hunting caliber, wood stock, nothing fancy, but... 10 shots, 10 hits. Cleaned the stage, and in the process, cleaned everyone else's clock.

You'd have a hard time convincing me that he - or anyone else that really knows his equipment and how to use it - needs his own division.

Bruce

[EricW]

I've only been to one actual "sniper" match. My experience was that the hicks from the sticks who actually practiced shooting at 600+ with their POS hunting rifles pretty well mopped the floor with the yokels who's high-zoot-especiales still had the new-car-smell.

[Religious Shooter]

You'd have a hard time convincing me that he - or anyone else that really knows his equipment and how to use it - needs his own division.

Well how about:

1. Time yourself on a reload.

a. Reload 5 rounds in a bolt-action via the loading port --- with a scope in the way. Reload off of some type of type of carrier -- shell belt or loose rounds in a pouch.

b. Now reload 5 via a removeable magazine. Or just compare your AR reloads to the above.

2. Run a stage a) with and without a compensator.

3. Run a surprise stage with targets that are small, of unknown size and distance a) with and without a laser range finder.

4. Run a stage a) with and without a bipod.

5. Run a stage a) with a plain reticle and with a HV equipped rifle.

I'd bet with all those little things the a. runs would be noticeably faster. The equipment matters. And yes of course skill matters also.

That guy won because of skill. But if someone with like skill came along with the better equipment chances are that shooter would not have won the stage.

I'm not saying we should limit the top-end. Get all and use all the different gear that you want. But I still say we should have some type of "entry-level" division to attract and keep shooters.

The USPSA MOR divisions are a start. But I don't think that they were extensively researched. It looks more the most part they just slapped the Open/Limited rifle classifications into the respective MOR divisions.

[EricW]

The detachable magazine problem will soon solve itself. There is now a need and someone will fill the void. Let the market create the technology to fill the need, not alter the rules to continue the perpetuation of inferior technology.

[Religious Shooter]

One problem with USPSA is the fact that they have a class for EVERYTHING ! ... I know they feel it is needed to draw in new shooters but I think that we as shooters need to bring the equipment we can afford or already have and do the best you can.

I agree with you. With Heavy-Metal being promoted in USPSA it looks like 3G will have yet another division.

But what I want to see is for MOR to become not just a SIDE-match... but a MATCH in itself. Through all the years of 1-gun and 3-gun matches it has evolved into the 5 pistol and the 3 (likely 4) 3G divisions. IF MOR takes-off it will eventually (by past history) have multiple divisions. Though USPSA already has two I just don't think the USPSA divisions have been hashed enough.

[Religious Shooter]

The detachable magazine problem will soon solve itself.  There is now a need and someone will fill the void.  Let the market create the technology to fill the need, not alter the rules to continue the perpetuation of inferior technology.

Hell revolvers are still around. And I'm sure to Open shooters, Limited/L10/Production equipment is for cavemen. And yet Limited/L10/Production shooters and equipment exist.

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of technology. It's more a matter of $ and the desires of the shooter. The equipment is already available. The balls-out competitive equipment justs costs a grip.

The demand and the market isn't exactly huge. Sniper matches have been going on for years and yet the gear that's competitive still cost a nice chunk of $. I don't think a couple more hundred straying USPSA3G/RM3G shooters are going to make that much of a difference in the market.

[John Dunn]

The ITRC has been won in the past by someone shooting a factory Ruger. I'm not sure, but if I recall correctly, it was a Number 1, not even a bolt gun. The shooter is 90%, the gear 10%, IMHO.

The big trouble is going to come in a few years when the military and police snipers have all switched over to semi-auto precision rifles in 6.5 EF (extra fast), and people decide that MOR should be changed to precision rifle, to keep it real.

[michael_aos]

The detachable magazine problem will soon solve itself.  There is now a need and someone will fill the void.  Let the market create the technology to fill the need, not alter the rules to continue the perpetuation of inferior technology.

I've been thinking about that very thing.

I'm not particularly impressed with the HS Precision 5rd detachable box magazine in .223.

It strikes me as a good idea, just poorly executed.

How tough could it really be to do it right? How come they're the only game in town?

If nothing else, you'd think Wilson Combat or JP Enterprises or Ed Brown or somebody would be buying AICS stocks, Remington 700 actions from Brownells, good 24" barrels in .260 Remington and a decent muzzle-brake and start up an assembly line.

Say small runs of 50 or so. Ideally starting around $1500. They'd sell like hotcakes.

Maybe an option or two -- Badger Ordnance mount, rings and a scope "package deal". Whatever.

Sort of like the Remington 1100CM. Plunk down your credit-card, and you're off to the races. No muss, no fuss.

Seems silly we have to pay $3K for a 5rd detachable box magazine.

Mike

[michael_aos]

Also I haven't priced PSS's lately. But at $650.00 for a PSS I think that's ultra-low. Maybe you can get it at that price in your area? As far as $200.00 for the take-off that's great if you have a buyer. But if you go to a regular Joe Schmoo shooter and tell him you want $200.00 for a PSS take-off stock I don't think their response would be as positive.

My 700P was $799.

Mike

[EricW]

I'm not particularly impressed with the HS Precision 5rd detachable box magazine in .223.

It strikes me as a good idea, just poorly executed.

How tough could it really be to do it right? How come they're the only game in town?

The HS is not a drop-in component. I have heard that they can be made to work and work well with a little tuning. I might give one a whirl next year and find out.

I do like the idea of utilizing existing 308 mags.

I have to wonder of the MOR of the future won't simply be a .308 cal AR variant sans gas tube and with a handle screwed into the bolt. The bolt and receiver could be modded with a spring-loaded roller detent that postively held the bolt in the forward position (so you'd have tactile feedback that you didn't leave the bolt partway out of battery in your haste). Then the bolt would sort of "snap" into place on the forward stroke. The end result would sure be a heck of a lot cheaper than all the gyrations people are going through now.

[rhino]

I read an article in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement about the Savage 110 packages for "tactical" use. It looks like it might be a good starter rig, and you can have it with a conventional stock, one of the McMillens (A5 I think), or the Choate sniper stock. They still don't have removable box magazines, though.

[Chriss Grube]

All the pissing and whining about the price of the guns is getting a little old. Gee lets just throw all the divisions and classes out and start a new system. If your gun cost 25 bucks or less, 25-100, 100-500, etc. Guess what somebody will still piss and moan. This sport was designed to find out what works the best to solve a given problem. Well if the best is a 5k rifle so what. If you want to shoot shut the hell up and go shoot. Lots of us went and shot nationals with all types of guns, how many really thought they had a chance at winning the big dance? There are very few people making a living shooting. I shoot for fun and the fact that it might just save my ass at work one day. I have no delusions of actually getting paid for this sport. If I bust my ass working OT and saving so I can buy a 5K Stick so what in the end it all comes down to hits on the target. We'd all be better shooters if we spent more time practicing and less time whining about how life aint fair.. get over it already!

[michael_aos]

How come nobody ever mentions the $1300 AR-30M?

[smokshwn]

Michael $799, youch! I have a couple of deals for you.

You guy's aren't looking very hard. 30 seconds on GB and viola!

Rem 700 PSS

That's brand new. Imagine scanning a long range forum or two for a couple of weeks.

[smokshwn]

People constantly pushing to limit the application of the best possible equipment gets old. Admittedly there are many trinkets that offer an advantage. But it becomes very hard to legislate the leveling of the playing field. It seems that hardware has become the whipping boy simply due to the ease with which it can be classified.

Some can practice more. Some are in regions of the country with a higher degree of competition. Some began competing earlier in life. Some have physical attributes that are advantageous. Some attend classes to improve skills. Etc. Etc. Etc. These are all things that effect outcomes at matches yet the only thing we constantly talk about classifying is equipment.

MOR being relatively new is an area where new/better high speed eq is the temptation. Give it a little more time and the equipment race will normalize the same way other equipment has and people will be spending more time learning to shoot. Right now since a good number of people (myself included) are new to this discipline, all we have to discuss is the goodies.

[Viggen]

Good optics are a given, match distances being what they are.

You got to have a good scope.

Once again about the rifles.

There are a couple of not extremely expensive guns that seem to fit the parameters of this game that are not generally mentionedm both have magazines are have the accuracy.

They are the CZ 527 Varmint and the CZ 550 Varmint.

The 527 can be had in 223 and has 5 round magazines. I don't know what the rate of twist is but if it's not conducive to 77's it's an easy fix.

And when the barrel has spent it's life either rebarrel with a 1:7 or 1: 8 223

OR since it's only going to see handload anyway(most likely) rebarrel it to a 6mm-223. Run 90's or 107's and buck the wind a lot better than the 223 and it might stack up real well against a 308 ot to 500 or 600.

Uses the same brass as a 223. The only difference is a 6mm pill. And it's easy to go from a 223 to a 244 neck.

If the 223 or lighter calibers can be used in this game then the 6mm-223 could be an option. And, if reality is anything close to the numbers, the cartridge could possibley make Major. I am not sure yet. That will have to be varified by actual testing.

The other option might be the CZ 550 Varmint. It can be had in 308 with a 4-shot magazine.

Now 4 is less than 5 but it should be a lot faster than a 700 unless you are running a HS or AI system, both of which are on the pricey side. Personally I would spend that money on good optics.

When the barrel goes on that, rebarrel to another 308 or better yet, a 260.

What do you guys think? Am I completely out of my mind?

[MattBurkett]

.223 and the 6mm will make the targets go ding but not clang. 6.5 is about the minimum caliber to be effective at 2900 fps to knock larues down at distance. Remember you don't even start shooting a rifle until about 700 yards. Thats when life gets interesting.

10 shot mags are a must since they stick out of the gun for quicker reloads. 4 shot mags would probably just drive you crazy esp. since nearly all the comps are 5 round positions or more.

[TMC]

I'm with Chriss on this, just go shoot. You can think all you want about equipment before you shoot but you won't know until you do it. Do you think you'll win the first time out? think again. Do you think people will laugh at you for showing up and shooting, I've never seen it in any match I've been to.

This sounds like the same excuses why that can't shoot a pistol match. I have alot of respect for the new guy who comes out the match, shoots what every he has, doesn't shoot himself and finished no matter how long it takes. That's a whole lot harder than thinking up reasons why you can't.

[cottyw]

Ok,

You all win. I am selling my savage. But I’m not moving to Wyoming!

I am thinking of buying:

Remington 700 in .260

Horus Vision scope

Kwik Klip

Harris Bipod

Muzzle break?

I just have a couple of questions:

What length and contour of barrel?

Will .260 hit steel with enough energy at long range?

Do I need a 20 MOA base to shoot the .260 to 1000yards with a Horus reticle?

With .260 do I need a muzzle break, which one?

Will

[Religious Shooter]

I am thinking of buying:

Remington 700 in .260

You might already know this, but ... the only factory Remington 700 in .260 is barreled with a hunting (i.e. light) barrel. IMHO a light profile isn't the best choice since the shots will be comparativley more rapid in MOR than in hunting.

So if you want to shoot .260 off-the-bat (and you want an appropriately profiled barrel) you will have to rebarrel immediately.

Do I need a 20 MOA base to shoot the .260 to 1000yards with a Horus reticle?

A 142 grainer @ 2744 fps (AccurateArms powder Max), with a BC of .580 (SMK specs), zeroed at 100 yards ==> will use the #9 line (actually 8.9) according to Trag1s5 at 1000 yards.

I've seen a number of people post a 2900 fps figure for 140's so it actually can be less at #8 (actually 7.8).

The H25 has a line up to #15.

http://www.horusvision.com/images/reticles/H25_Huge.gif

So as long as you can zero with a 0 MOA base at 100 (almost 100% probability) you won't need a 20 MOA base.

But... if you get an offset reticle like the H2 or H39

you may need a 20 MOA base since you may have problems zeroing at 100 yards. Then again you may not necessarily need one if the scope has enough adjustment and you are content that the scope's turrets maybe closer to an extreme in terms of adjustment.

With .260 do I need a muzzle break, which one?

To be competitive I say you need one. As far as which one? I'd like to find out too.