MOR Equipment setup

[MattBurkett]

I have tried out the Tubbs 2k for MOR/Sniper matches. It has a couple of major issues for the sniper matches especially. Try shooting it weak shoulder - fast. It does have an awesome trigger and the bolt cycle speed is really cool. I personally think it is way to position sensitive for "real work" or sniper matches.

I won't go into the other problems I had or have seen - I tried one for a month and now have an AI AW and will never look back. If you want a rifle that will always work whether it is hot, cold, dirty, ran over by a truck, etc. get an AIAW. I have tested it from 30 degrees to 200 degrees on barrel temp with no impact point shift. And it reloads fast. I will never own a 700 again although if I did, it would have the AICS stock on it.

Yeah, the AI stuff is pricey, but, if you want something thats tough and real world proven - they are the only way to go.

FYI the ten round AW mags actually hold 12. :-P

BTW my scope setup is a US Optics with an H25 HV ret. with mil adjustments. Think about that setup and using it with the ATRAG software and you will figure out some really cool things!

Take care,

Matt

[smokshwn]

Matt,

Thanx for the post. You confirmed my suspicions about the TUBB. You can ignore the email I sent you concerning the MOR setup you have answered most of the q's anyway.

I was joking with Tom earlier about his AICS but since it was in my long term plans I replied to a email from him and I hope to hear back soon on a price.

My plan was to save up for a USO scope but yday I came upon a deal on a USO SN3 Tpal with HV25 ill ret for an absolutely insane price. So looks like Merry Christmas for me

Take care, Craig

[MattBurkett]

FYI the USO guys sure do well on their warranty work if you have any issues. I must have missed your email. When did you send it? We have all the server issues fixed back up, now I am just training my spam catcher.

BTW .260 is THE rockin caliber. 6.5 x 284 is absolutely awesome if you want to support barrel makers and your gunsmith. If you don't practice, that would be a great choice. Having shot 14K of match .308 in the last year and a half, that would have required approx. 7 barrels! The last time I shot my AW it had over 6K on it and it shot .3 at 200!

Did you read my article on MOR/sniper matches?

[BillL223]

Chris G, yes, Bill H shoots a TRG. Was third in the 2003 3-Gun Nats MOR match shooting a .308 and NF scope. His new gun is the .338 LM.

[bgary]

I will never own a 700 again although if I did, it would have the AICS stock on it.

OK, soooo....

I have a 700 (PSS, .308), and am not likely to get the price of an AI AW past my Spousal Priority Modifier....

Is the AI CS a good half-step?

Put another way, what tangible things can I do with an AI CS, that I can't do without one?

Bruce

[smokshwn]

Bruce,

I am going with the exact setup you are contemplating. (700 pss in an AICS)

The tangibles as I understand them and in priority are:

1) Reloads from a box magazine.

2) Detachable magazine system that works far better than anything out there without resorting to stratospherical price tags.

3) With the AICS 1.5 you get a completely adjustable stock with the detachable mags. Far cheaper than say a McMillan A5 and HS mag conversion.

Here is the disclaimer. My stuff is in the mail on its way to me as we speak so anyone that sees a mistake in my post, feel free to part my hair with a witty zinger or two.

Take care, Craig

[bgary]

Thanks Craig.

A coupla questions:

-- I'm curious why you landed on the 1.5 with the adjustable cheek piece but *not* the hinge? My understanding is that one of the great things (perhaps the whole reason?) for the hinge is so that you can get the bolt out for cleaning without disassembling the cheek piece from the stock. Any thoughts or guidance?

-- Also, do you anticipate that an action can be installed in the AICS by "mere mortals", or is that a rifle-smith job (bedding, etc)? My three favorite tools are Dremel, vice-grips and duct-tape, if that adds context to the question...

Thanks,

Bruce

[smokshwn]

Bruce,

There is basically two reason why I went with the 1.5.

1) It was a screamin deal from Tom Freeman. Thanx, Tom

2) Rumor has it the 2.0 is being discontinued and they are very hard to find.

My original plan if I had not found the AICS used was to go with the 1.0 for cost reasons. With respect to not being able to remove the bolt, I wasn't aware that disassembly of the cheekpiece was required. Maybe it is related to how high you have the cp configured. I will let you know as soon as I get the gun and the stock together.

As far as mounting goes, what I have been told is that it is a pretty simple plug and play affair. Most people on the sniper type forums claim that it was designed to simply be mounted with no bedding needed. Others say go ahead and bed it. The consensus was to go ahead and mount the gun, shoot it and see how it performs before deciding to bed or not. Many who did bed said they experienced little improvement compared to the improvement they see with traditional stocks.

I will definitely keep you posted as the pieces of my project start to come together.

[Chriss Grube]

Bruce,

Yes mere mortals can install it. You only need a few simple tools. A 65 In/lbs. torque wrench and the correct size allen wrench. Mine shot .5 MOA or less so I don't see the need to bed it. The 1.5 will require the cheeck rest be removed to clean. 2.0 folds out of the way and is the ticket. 1.0 can be done with a 42" rod. 1.5 you're screwed. Spend the extra 100 and go 2.0.

[smokshwn]

looks like I'll be taking the CP off for cleaning. Oh well I saved well over the $200 dollar difference that I would have been looking at.

Now for the deal of the week. I had been looking at the HV and was considering the $1000 Falcon scope but I was kind of fence sitting. So I had decided to get just a $300 super sniper to begin shooting with and save my money for a US Optics sometime down the road. USO is a complete indulgence but arguably noone makes a better optic and man o man they have cool factor out the wazzoo!

Anyway in cruising the sniper forums I meet a USO dealer from right here in Salt Lake and guess what, he has a USO SN3 Tpal Illuminated Horus Vision H25 reticle, low profile objective , butler creeks, and a honeycomb sunshade. All told if you look on USO's pricelist we're talking $3k in an optic. So just to humor myself I ask him how much and lo and behold $2250 complete. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME

Thanx for letting me gloat a little

[MattBurkett]

Bruce, got your IM here is your answer.

GET THE AICS and about 8 10 round mags. Take 6 of them and bind them together into pairs.

Buy the torque wrench.

Do NOT buy the AI bipod - it sucks.

Get the 2.0 stock - trust me it is worth the extra couple of bucks.

Get a bigger bolt handle - the badger works well.

Extend the mag catch out the side. If my camera was working, I would post a pic. Basically turn it into an upside down "T" shape.

If you are over 6' you may want to consider the stock extension spacers.

Then go out to the range and have fun!

:-)

[cottyw]

Gentlemen,

I have some thoughts on MOR. I make these comments because I care about our sport and try to bring new people to it all the time. The question they most often ask is, “Will, how much was all that gear”. When I tell them they say, “….wow”. Yea.

Do we really want to encourage an equipment race?

If you need 5K worth of rifle and scope to compete the field will be small or only include dedicated sniper/MOR competitors. The additional need for a palm size ballistic computer, software and a laser range finder make it a 7K investment.

I am not trying to be a “Tactical Tommie” with these next comments. I know how much you all hate those types. I have read all the hate threads.

My limited understanding of bolt rifle application is the following:

1. The need for extreme accuracy

2. The need for first round incapacitation, good penetration through difficult mediums and barriers or full transfer or energy and little collateral damage.

3. The need for wind bucking or the ability to compensate over range without Kentucky windage. The ability to range find and adjust bullet impact for trajectory.

These criteria sound like a hunting rifle or an urban marksman stage.

Why not design side matches for 3-gun matches to meet these criteria? This would encourage hunters with good rifles to come out and try their luck. I really like the idea of creating a 4-gun competition for those who want it. I just worry that if all 3-gun were open only, the rich would be competing with their custom rifles, custom pistols and custom shotguns and the rest of us would just watch and go wow like custom car racing. I can still play golf with my Wal-Mart clubs. That’s how the ranges/courses stay in business.

Maybe my comments only make sense for the east coast 300yard matches. Maybe I am talking about a MOR tactical class.

Will

[John Dunn]

The thing to tell your friends is that all that gear is meaningless unless you can shoot. I'd be willing to bet that if you gave Matt B, Voigt, Cooley, Butler, etc. a police trade-in Glock, Uncle Mike's holster, Savage 110 with a Bushnell scope, a 600 dollar AR, and some old beat up 1100, they would still be kicking butt in three gun and MOR.

The best advice is always to start with what you have, and if you get bit by the bug, you can always decide to get a Brazos, AI, Benny Hill Benelli, Ghost holster, etc.

[cottyw]

John,

You just described my gear verbatim (police trade-in Glock, Uncle Mike's holster, Savage 110 with a Bushnell scope, a 600 dollar AR, and some old beat up 1100). You make my point but how do you know what I shoot? I hope I can always compete. I do ok at Kyle’s and the other tactical matches. I went to the prize table 3 guys behind Matt at the FOP match in Fayetteville (those guys took all the guns and I got a shirt). Right now with my savage I would have a hard time at some of these matches.

Will

[shred]

The thing to tell your friends is that all that gear is meaningless unless you can shoot.  I'd be willing to bet that if you gave Matt B, Voigt, Cooley, Butler, etc. a police trade-in Glock, Uncle Mike's holster, Savage 110 with a Bushnell scope, a 600 dollar AR, and some old beat up 1100, they would still be kicking butt in three gun and MOR. 

I think the point was "why not limit them to that kind of gear then?" It would make the cost-of-competitive-gear much less, or at least the appearance of it. If that's what's keeping people out, then I think it makes sense.

Of course my MOR is a 18" 45-70 levergun, so I may be a bit off base.

[MattBurkett]

RANT MODE ON:

I see people show up with darn near everything at a sniper match. Of course they understand that they are not going to do as well as someone that is well equipped. Same thing happens if you take a crappy car to a race - you are probably going to get beat.

Why does the sport have to have limits? Anything other than $?

Why do we have to base it around the lowest common denominator as a contestant?

It wouldn't be nearly as fun with crappy equipment and you would sure piss off the people that have invested the time and money in their gear and training to compete. Believe me the gun is not the most expensive part of the equation - practice and time run way more.

"I can still play golf with my Wal-Mart clubs. That’s how the ranges/courses stay in business." I am betting if you have Walmart clubs, you are not a competitive golfer. You can still shoot any sniper match with your walmart 30-06 and leupold scope (also available at Walmart).

If you want to shoot, buy or borrow the best you can afford and go do it.

FYI the gear is meaningless if you can't shoot just like with golf, racing or any other competition/sport.

My favorite complaint by people on the east coast is that matches should never have shots at 1K since they can't practice them at any local ranges. Guess what? If you move to where you can and you will be able too.

Rant mode off: Beer time

FYI: Jimmy Clark Jr. wins most of the real sniper comps with a Remington 700 *customized of course, Leupold scope, Bushnell Laser rangefinder, and does all his math on the back of a plastic board. He is an awesome shooter/spotter and one hell of a guy. He would beat damn near anyone there with anything as long as it grouped.

[Viggen]

I think your right about the $ limitation thing.

The best development takes place in an environment where money is sometimes not much of an issue.

Having said that I look at the AI rifles and US Optics with Hoursvision scopes and say to myself, "not this weeki".

But I still want to give the game a fair shot. Like when folks start shooting Practical Pistol matches, they generally go with something basic so they can get their feet wet. In the Practical world folks generally start somewhere with Glocks, Barettas, 1911's, etc., before they spring for the SVI/STI Limited or Open Guns.

If I am starting with nothing in MOR, keep me from buying the equivelant of a Ruger 9mm(reliable but not a Practical gun).

What might be some ideas for basic configurations of Rifles/Scopes/ etc. that will not put somebody too far on the negetive side of the equipment power curve? (Will a Savage cut it in the game or is it going to have to be a Rem PSS, etc.?)

I will pick up the Kestrel 4000 and Horusvision software after a bit, after I practice my way through a barrel or two.

ps. it was a good beer

[MattBurkett]

Okay, pick up a 700 PSS.

AICS Chassis

3 10 rd. mags

65" pound torque wrench - get it with the stock

Larue Base and rings

Scope of choice either a Leupy or an HV

Bi-pod

Sling

That will get you through most of the matches.

Add additional accessories as you can. Most are listed below in the article.

Here is an article that you may have missed from 2003 on LRR shooting. I am currently running a AIAW with a USO HV 25.

Hope it helps.

Merry Christmas,

Matt

••••••••••••••••••••

Last year I ventured into long range shooting. Quite an interesting

experience! Hope you enjoy the article!

Why should a pistol shooter care about Long Range Rifle (LRR)? As you go

through the learning process, it will increase your knowledge base about the

science of shooting. In particular, the information about ballistics and

reloading from the LRR will significantly change the way you understand

pistols. Pistol shooters also tend to lose sight of accuracy – no pun

intended – which is the primary focus of an LRR shooter. Besides, it is a

real kick in the butt to learn something new, especially a sport that is as

difficult as LRR matches.

Lessons I have learned in the last year.

In 2003, I started shooting long range precision rifle competitions. This

started with the MGM IronMan and the MOR or Manually Operated Rifle

Nationals and continued on to the Sniper National Championships at

RiflesOnly in Kingsville Texas.

I use to think that 500-600 yards is a long shot. Little did I know that you

really don’t even start shooting a rifle until you are over 600.

Lets get started with the equipment I have tried out and what I am using

now.

What I decided to work with for the 600 yard targets at the MGM IronMan was

a custom upper from ASA in .223 with a 26” barrel and a triangular handguard

that weighs about 3 pounds by itself. It just didn’t end up shooting as well

as I wanted with the ammo and optics I had available so I ditched it at the

match and borrowed a Remington 700 PSS in .308 with a Leopold on it from

Mark Buchanan. Worked pretty well and Mark had his dope down for the range.

Got 7 out of 10 hits on the long range targets with a gun I had never shot

before. Thanks Mark! Ended up winning the match with a new shotgun from

Bevin Grams of Grams Engineering, a borrowed LRR, a borrowed Trijicon TA-11.

The first LRR I tried was a Blaser LRS. For a factory gun, it is an

incredible rifle, very fast bolt throw, and extremely accurate but there are

a few disadvantages to it for competition. It has the 10 round magazine

capacity that is almost mandatory to be competitive in the sniper

competitions. The only issue is getting the mags in and out of the gun. It

is just not designed for fast magazine changes. The straight pull bolt is

amazingly fast to operate but you have to keep the locking collet extremely

clean or it can jam up on you. The only other issue is the weight of the

rifle. This has been reduced in the LRS 2 – the replacement model of the LRS

I was shooting. The main problem I have with the new design is that only 5

round magazines are available for it and the possible unreliability of the

bolt mechanism. The scope that was on the rifle didn’t do the job I needed

it to, either. First major lesson learned about shooting a rifle – Glass is

everything. When I flew to the MOR match and tested the gun after landing it

hit almost 2 feet to the left at 100 yards. The scope that was on it was

from a company that doesn’t exist anymore so no reason to mention who it

was. I borrowed a rifle from James Darst and it was a Remington 700 in 6.5 x

.284 with a Night Force scope on it. This was my first real introduction to

the NightForce scopes and how wonderful they are to use. Ended up 2nd

overall and thought that I would have to look at shooting more LRR matches.

I had been looking into some different scope systems including the Horus

Vision products and from their website I called up Jacob Bynum with Rifles

Only. First time we talked on the phone we pretty much acted like long lost

friends. He already knew who I was since his wife (Lisa) had bought him my

videos for Christmas. What a great guy with an incredible knowledge of

sniping. He made me an offer that I couldn’t refuse, fly over and take a

five day class and shoot my first sniper match. I told him that I didn’t

have a rifle to shoot his train up with and he generously offered his

personal AI. Now if you don’t know what an AI is, it is the standard issue

sniper rifle of almost every NATO country except the US and sells for about

5K! I asked him about recoil and he started laughing, Then said that it was

suppressed and I didn’t need to worry about it. He had one of the first

generation Horus scopes on it. If you aren’t familiar with the Horus set-up,

it is a scope that has a mil lined reticle. It is based on hold-overs and

tied to the pda software Atrag. More information can be found on the website

http://www.horusvision.com

There are two basic concepts in long range shooting. The standard way is to

adjust the turrets to the range you are shooting. For example if you have

your .308 sighted in at 100 yards and then laser a target at 560 you would

look at your range card and then dial in the adjustments needed to hit it.

On the Horus, you range the target then either refer to a range card or the

Trag software and use a line in the scope to hold over. Both have advantages

and disadvantages. Someone could write a book on the differences. I have

tried and actually like both of types. I think the choice of scope and

reticle should be dependant on what kind of competition you are entering. If

you can, try both and see what you like better.

The train-up at Jacob’s was awesome. Here is a some information from the

train up and my first sniper competition that I thought would be interesting

to include.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••

Well, we have been working our butts off over here. If you had told me last

week that I would have been shooting at 681 yards on a moving target and hit

it I would have said you were nuts! I was 7 for 10 on it! I had some serious

issues at other distances. From my 3 gun shooting, my focus on a scope stays

entirely on target. With the Horus reticle and using line three and below

you need to spot the target, look to the number in the scope, follow the

line back to your lead/wind call then shoot. When it is done right, it

rocks! Takes a bit of learning but when you get it down, wow. No

adjustments, just put the right hold over and lead/wind in and pull the

trigger. Pretty damn trick. Check out the H25 lighted reticle if you get a

chance.

Here is what we covered in the last couple of days – short list and

definitely not all inclusive:

A small list of a few of the things we have covered.

Proper positioning.

Wind/temp/alt/BP/etc.

Angle shooting

Weak hand prone, kneeling, standing off a barricade

Offhand

Shooting out to 1000 yards with .308 and 1720 with .338

Ranging with lasers and Mil-dots

horus reticle system

Proper rifle cleaning

How over cleaning damages a rifle

Use of a sniper log book and data tracking

Proper rifle cleaning and not over cleaning

Proper use of scope power at distance – low as possible

Sitting/standing/kneeling/squatting/offhand/several variations of each

Low light shooting

Night Shooting at 400 on a mover

Moving targets from 100-680

Trapping versus Leading moving targets

Rapid bolt work/loading and keeping your head on the gun

Importance of Follow through

Learning trace (following the path of the bullet) while spotting

Team communications

Situational awareness

Team shooting with five snipers and multiple targets/Communications

Multiple static target engagement with a 400 yard mover

Urban shooting positions including windows and rooftops

High angled fire

Continuous wind correction and effects of atmospheric conditions on bullet

flight

Stress fire – run 200+ yards and engage 5 targets from windows out to 617

yards

Anyway, tomorrow is the last day of class, then the sniper competition.

There is so much to learn that a week is way too short of a class. Sure does

help bring you up to speed on the stuff in the crash course train up. Long

range rifle shooting is a combination of technology, technique, and art. You

could definitely spend a lifetime learning it, but taking a class with

Rifles Only will absolutely shortcut that process! I can’t give enough kudos

to the staff of Jacob, James and Thomas at Rifles Only. They really care

about helping the students improve and push them enough to get fantastic

shooting out of them but not too much to have the students lose confidence.

No student is left behind, yet they still cover the information fast enough

as to not lose interest. That can be a daunting task for the instructors and

they have done extremely well.

We finished up with the long range rifle training on Friday and the final

event the Rangers ran was pretty grueling. We have been training with 5

Rangers for the last week along with several officers and a top Cowboy

shooter. I have been getting a crash course in what the Ranger snipers have

been doing for a while. They are a fantastic group of guys that make me

proud of our Army. Their last event was about 2800 yards of running with

shooting from 10-12 locations. Try hitting a golf ball (hanging from a

string) at 100 yards after humping your rifle and gear 500 yards! Two of the

five got it, which I thought was down right awesome.

Well the match and the training is over. I personally did better and yet

worse in many ways than I thought I would. Talk about a frustrating

experience. One bullet moved me from first to fifth over all. Even after

missing the 400 yard cold bore shot Saturday morning and losing 100 points

for that round, I was leading until the Saturday evening night shoot. Then I

got a little behind. Had a rough time with the 400 yard mover. Still not

sure why the dope was wrong on the scope as I dialed the amount in called by

the Palm Trag2 software. According to Thomas all my shots were just

underneath it with the right lead. The 500 yard cold bore the next morning

pretty much sealed my fate when it was dead center and an inch low. I am

wondering if some of the dope issues were do to the significant weather

changes during the week. It had cooled off 25 degrees and that may have had

a serious affect on the velocity. It was difficult to hang in there mentally

after Sunday’s Cold Bore Shot that I felt put me way back. Another rule of

competition is to never ever give up until the last shot is fired. You never

know what is going to happen.

Jacob and staff must be partially insane with some of the events they had us

do in the competition. Weak shoulder mover from the sitting position at 100

yards off a barricade. BTW the target was only six inches wide by four

inches tall.  We shot 29 separate events from 1 to 20 rounds each in two and

a half days. It is a butt kicking, tough, tiring match and I would do it

again in a heartbeat! Everyone at the match did a great job, was safe and

there were no injuries which makes it a complete success.

Ended up 5th overall. All in all it has been an amazing time learning the

new techniques in an art that is somewhat similar to pistol shooting and yet

so vastly different. Some of the lessons from pistol shooting carry over

like compressing the time it takes to make an acceptable shot and when it is

necessary to crank it up and work that bolt and get bullets down range.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

I shot my second match at http://tacproshootingcenter.com/ and used a Tubbs

2000 from McMillan. It is an absolutely beautiful rifle. Had to tape some

padding to the stock to shoot weak shoulder since the gun is really designed

to shoot one sided (you order the gun for right or left handers). Had some

problems with it. One minute it would shoot great, next it would seem to

throw the rounds. Not sure if it was a problem specifically related to the

demo gun I was borrowing or if the platform is just very position dependent.

I had put down a deposit for one and cancelled the order when I was informed

that it would take 10 months to get it built due to their military

contracts. I still would like to have one to test it out more extensively.

This was a team match and I partnered up with Todd Hodnet whom I had met in

my first train up. Todd shot a great match and won overall top gun and I

took third.

My third match was at Rifles Only and used Jacobs rifle again. Didn’t do as

well with it as the first time. Ended up 9th. Little did I know, more

frustration was waiting for me at the first Rifles Only Sniper National

Championship.

The fourth match of the year was the finals. You had to have competed in 3

matches to get invited. The match was listed as 24 hours of hell. That was

pretty much right on the money. I wouldn’t wish that match on someone. It

was brutal. Have I said how tough that match was yet? It was down to 30

degrees at five in the morning. Didn’t help that I didn’t get to check my

data the morning of the match since my rental car got broken into. Didn’t

get anything stolen at least, but it cost me the chance to get local on site

data. Ended up 15th after some stupidity. Loaded 6 rounds in the dark for a

five round stage. Cost me a stage DQ. The real bummer was finding out that

it was the best event I shot. It was the 300 yard mover and I shot about a

4” 6 shot group. Still feel like an idiot when I think about that one. He

had us do almost everything in that match. We started at 1000 yards and shot

the closest target at 35 feet at a 70 degree angle from the third floor of

the tower.

I shot a new gun in this match, a Remington 700 mil-spec with a 5R barrel.

Here are the specs on my kit that I shot at the Nationals.

Remington 700 Stainless special with mil-spec 5r

AICS 1.5 chassis system from accuracy international

MGSS titanium suppressor

3 10 round magazines

1 5 round magazine

Harris 6-9” swivel bi-pod

Harris Med

Harris Long

Nightforce 5.5-22 NPR2

Butler Creek flip up scope caps

Bubble level

Bedded by Kodiak Precision

Muzzle braked by Kodiak Precision

Accuracy International Sling

Accuracy International Hand Stop

Jewel Trigger set to 1 pound

Leica 1200 Scan Laser Rangefinder

Neucon Laser Rangefinding Bino’s

Hydrastorm Matrix Backpack

Palm 100

Atrag 2 software

www.perry-systems.com software

StoneyPoint shooting stix

Black Hills 175 grain .308 match ammo

Spec-ops dragbag

www.3gungear.com sniper bag system

Original Swat 9” side zip boots

511 tactical pants

Gore-tex jacket

Engle Ballistics compression garments

Dewey Cleaning supplies

Butch’s Bore Solvent

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

To wrap this up, it was an amazing year learning the LRR. Finding out what

it takes to be competitive in the sport was daunting but very worth it.

Thanks to everyone that has helped me out in the last year and I look

forward to seeing all of you at a match this season.

[Viggen]

Thank you for posting the article. I had not been able to find it.

And thank you for the equipment guide.

[paraman1]

If you are looking to save money you should hit the Tactical websites,"For Sale" sections . I picked up this Rem 700 VSSF in .308 with a fully adjustable H-S Precision PST25 , Badger base and Rings and a Leupold 6.5-20 LR Mildot scope for 1600 bucks .

This is a 3 shot group at 100 yards from my first outing with the rifle using handloaded 168 Grain Nosler J4's , Fed. 210M primers and 44.5 grains of Varget .

I just picked up an H-S precision Detachable Magazine setup for 150 bucks used with a 4 round mag and will be buying some 10 rounders after the first of the year .

My point being is that you dont have to put off sending the kids to college to have a competitive rifle . I set a course record in Wenatchee Washington at a 600 yard Highpower match with this rifle by shooting a 1197-78X over 2 days setting right alongside some extremely expensive (4-10K) rigs .

[EricW]

For those who don't even want to cough up for the fully adjustable stock, Shawn Carlock is making and adjustable comb to fit the Remmy 700 series (and others) that is incredibly simple, featherweight, and inexpensive.

www.defensiveedge.net

I know this seems like a shameless plug, but the point being that, I too, do not believe that one need spend 4K+ on a bare rifle to be competitive. You *can* get outstanding performance from a 700 with a few mods if it doesn't group perfectly right out of the box. Setting back the barrel, reaming out the chamber, lapping the bolt, and recrowning can work wonders and really isn't that expensive to have done.

[cottyw]

Guys,

Good discussion. I hope MOR really takes off.

Will

[smokshwn]

It better. I'm now into my MOR more than my Open gun

[Religious Shooter]

My point being is that you dont have to put off sending the kids to college to have a competitive rifle . I set a course record in Wenatchee Washington at a 600 yard Highpower match with this rifle by shooting a 1197-78X over 2 days setting right alongside some extremely expensive (4-10K) rigs .

I don't think the problem with the cheaper alternatives is with accuracy. You can get a Savage, an entry-level 700, CZ or what have you and with the right ammo you can pretty much equal the practical accuracy of the Tubb, AI's, et. al.

It has more to do with the ergonomics, suitability, ease-of-use, etc. differences between the "cheap" rigs and the expensive ones.

Removeable magazines and capacity looks to be the #1 difference... Savage and most 700's don't have one. The CZ only has a 4+1. The Tubbs is 10+1 and AI's are 5/10+1.

MBurkett says you can tape the AI magazines. You can't do that with the short 4/5 round magazines of the cheap rigs.

It looks like it's also easier to change the barrels on the expensive rifles.

AFAIK that's pretty much the difference between a cheap and an expensive rig. You pay $2,500.00 more for a removeable magazine, 5-6 more rounds and easier barrel changeout. $2,500.00!!!! Just for that!

I think Motts mentioned in the Frontsight interview that he wanted to have separate classes for removeable and fixed magazine guns. Sounds like a real good idea.

I'd like to throw in that the H25/Horus equipped guns, bipods, compensators, use of lasers should also be placed in a separate upper class. We have it in 3G rifle. Why not in MOR?

The boys with the deep pockets can have their cake and eat it too. And us po' boys can have their fun too.

[smokshwn]

R S,

How did you arrive at $2500 for removable mags. My gun is a Rem 700 PSS ($650) and an AICS chassis ($550). I can get an easy $200 for the take off stock and by my math that's $1000. I was actually waiting for a Rem 700 VS (same action as the PSS) which would knock another $100 of the gun price.

As far as classification goes, long range rifles have optics, slings, bi-pods and muzzle brakes. There doesn't seem to be as clear of line to draw for divisions as you there is with production, limited, and open.

I agree Long Range Rifle really does not have a "glock" type option with respect to cost. But if you are patient and watch the classifieds you can get into a very competitive rig for around $1500 total. That's cheaper than a double stack or open setup by far.