saibot Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 I was reflecting a little on last night's dry fire session and something I noticed about my draw. I normally aggressively go for the pistol, then pull it and start to get it on target. I was experimenting with my draw and noticed something interesting that I'll try my best to describe. If I slowly/smoothly get my hand to the pistol, I can then "snap" the gun towards the target. It's a small thing but creates an entirely different draw/presentation. It "feels" more controlled overall and I bet I'd have less flubbed grips. I'll have to experiment with it more to see how it works out. The time doesn't seem to be any different like this. Anyone ever notice this? I've been constantly searching for a good starting point with my hands and how to index on to the pistol exactly the same every time, so any tips there would be great, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Smooth is fast. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Yup like Pat said: Slow is smooth and smooth is FAST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 And fast is smooth. Think smooth only. No fast, no slow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 (edited) Don't think at all. Once you start thinking you slow the brains processing power. Yeah just BE smooth. Edited December 27, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Or no thinking? By best draws come with no thinking...but I save that for the match, or at least try not to think. Whoops...no trying either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 In a match I usually have no problem with thinking or trying. For me the problem is in practice. In practice I find that I tend to overanalyze, try, and I'm thinking fast. It screws me up sometimes, and I end up frustrated. I'm trying to find the balance in practice so I didn't get to the tense and frustrated state, but still learning and improving. Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. Sorry Saibot for high jacking the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Surfer Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 (edited) A little off topic but I found the most gains in my reaction to the beep. This can save huge in first shot times. The stage can be lost without firing a shot no matter how fast your draw is if you're caught sleeping on the line. Edited December 27, 2013 by Silver_Surfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpie427 Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Smooth and fast...and In steel matches you have to hit your first target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 Not "or" You're looking for "and" Grip fast AND smooth. How is your stance, grip, draw, and extension to your natural point of aim? Figure it out and do it dry until you can't do it wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 (edited) When you put your hand to the side of your gun have your wrist touching the bottom of your holster and the back/side of your gun handle touching your forearm. This way your arm/hand is exactly in the same position at the start of your draw ... It's also the legal "hands relaxed at your sides" start position you see on many stages ... Edited December 27, 2013 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 (edited) Look closely at the arm and hand position for many top GMs and you will see some variation of this arm/hand start position ... Edited December 27, 2013 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacemaker25 Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 I think the cost benefit relationship skews in favor of being sure to get a good grip. A rushed, poor grip will only save a tenth or two, but can either slow you down or mess with your accuracy until you either take time to correct, or correct at your first mag change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearguywb Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Yup like Pat said: Slow is smooth and smooth is FAST! This will probably start an uproar, but this is the most misused quote I. The shooting world. Slow is slow. Fast is fast. The goal is to be soooo smooth you are fast. Have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 (edited) Perhaps. But I am not interested in uproar. I can say that I first heard it in 85' when I started playing this game by many of the greats and what's important is how I interpret it. For me, I take it as a state of mind I am trying to achieve. The desired state of when I am clear of conscious thought and allow the moment to unfold in front of me and it's almost as if I am just observing the shooting. If feels smooth, controlled and in a way slow. But once the conscious mind takes over, when the last round has been sent, the timer says "Damn that was fricken' smokin'". Thats what it means to me. Edited December 28, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 (edited) Perhaps. But I am not interested in uproar. I can say that I first heard it in 85' when I started playing this game by many of the greats and what's important is how I interpret it. For me, I take it as a state of mind I am trying to achieve. The desired state of when I am clear of conscious thought and allow the moment to unfold in front of me and it's almost as if I am just observing the shooting. If feels smooth, controlled and in a way slow. But once the conscious mind takes over, when the last round has been sent, the timer says "Damn that was fricken' smokin'". Thats what it means to me. This^^ I'm starting to learn that when it looks like everything is going slow, I'm observing the process as a whole, and it is really happening quickly. When I TRY to go fast, I am shooting with the conscious mind, and everything seems like it's going out of control. This is how mistakes happen, i.e. fumbled reloads, pausing before transitions, etc. Edited December 28, 2013 by jabbermurph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearguywb Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 You can never be fast using the conscious mind.....at anything. The whole slow/smooth/fast thing was a way to teach shooters how to conduct a specific finite movement. As you learn that movement (with correct practice), speed becomes possible. Straight up, we started around the same time and probably shot with some of the same guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Yup like Pat said: Slow is smooth and smooth is FAST! cringe Slow isnt fast. At what point one becomes the other is a matter of context, but smooth could be slow or fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 (edited) I explained it quite clearly above. I am not defining "slow", "smooth" and "fast" by webster's definition. It is applied conceptually to illustrate an idea. I am of the opinion that if one approaches shooting using literal concepts one can not transcend the restrictive idea of both fast AND slow. Edited December 28, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saibot Posted December 28, 2013 Author Share Posted December 28, 2013 Great info guys! Glad to see I'm not the only one over thinking things on a regular basis. I do have a good stance and NPA after tuning it a bit in dry fire and confirming with live fire. I spent quite a bit of time drawing to an upper A zone with my eyes closed, then opening my eyes and noting where the sights were. I had to grip the gun differently (rotating my hand in the direction that would have your thumb moving away from the mag release), as well as have my left foot a little forward of the right. I do find myself standing up too much and have to remind myself to keep my knees bent. Anyway, I'm trying to do as you all have suggested and ingrain these mechanics into unconscious competency so there is no thinking on match day, so I want to get all of the mechanics perfect (as can be) and dry fire the bejesus out of them. Of all of the pieces to learn, the grip has been the most wiley for me to master. I keep finding new things that change everything and never happy with any of it. And great tip on the indexing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 Just a thought... but when a shoot toses a really bad shot (Mike or Charlie) it seems to most often occur at the first shot from the holster, or the first shot after a reload. I believe this is because the shooter is 'hurrying' and has not gotten a proper grip on the gun after the manipulation required to access the gun on the draw or re-acquire a proper grip after the reload. Speeding the draw is useless if you don't get the proper grip on the gun while it is in the holster... or if you hurry the shot after the gun hand manupulation required on the reload. Ya gotta get a grip... even if it is slow & smooth. Throw a Charlie in ICORE and you will wish you'd taken the extra half-second to get a proper grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 one can not transcend the restrictive idea of both fast AND slow. Wow, you are on that good stuff. Usually the timer can transcend any confusion on your performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 The "Good Stuff" I am on is in the Zen forum, feel free to stop on by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted December 28, 2013 Share Posted December 28, 2013 You have to remember to breathe out of the correct eye on the draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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