Does 3 gun need a governing body?

[GentlemanJim]

It seems this is all about 3gun nation owning 3gun in general.

Wont happen

Jim

[kurtm]

Ok I'll play, Jesse what do you propose to pay folks for working the matches? I can tell you right now a free match and free room and board for the time of the match doesn't even come close to "compensation" when you look at travel, time off work, days un paid....etc. Now by your definition that makes them paid employees, but if you add it all up you would make more at 7-11.. I would call them volunteer still, but obviously you don't, so how you going to sweeten the pot. Lets take it local, what do we now pay the guy who sets up, the guys who help run squads, the guy who runs the timer? They already get a free match for setting up, what do we pay them onto of that. Your great at talking big picture, so lets get down and talk about what and how. You obviously have given this a great deal of thought, lets have you line your plan out. Give me some details, not just aggrandizement!!!

[Neomet]

Hell, if we are going to to increase match fees for anything put my money towards hiring a few hyperactive kids to brass and reset stages as quick as they can before you put it towards a governing body. At my old age that is what would make my match experience better!

[Jesse Tischauser]

Big difference between "freely" and "expecting".......so no.....you and I do not agree.

But.....that wasn't the point anyways, the point is......I see no up side that governing body for 3 gun from a club level standpoint or major match stand point. whether it be IDPA, USPSA, 3G Nation, etc, etc. For all the costs that could or would be incurred by the host club (especially a not for profit club) to be a member of the governing body there has to be an upside.....what it is? No one has even mentioned that part. And that if may also be the same for a Major Match as well. And that was the intent of my original post. To look at it just from a shooter standpoint is only part of the discusion.

So you're saying that RO's at majors aren't "expecting" a free room and match fees typically? You damn right they are or most wouldn't be able to volunteer. Thankfully we can give them what it takes to keep them volunteering.

There is a bunch of return from 3GN thus far and it's the largest organized 3-gun body we have right now. Lena Miculek has a 25,000 upsides and Greg Jordan has 50,000 upsides. I see the local guys enjoying the heck outta the Classifiers that 3 Gun Nation is using. It's the only way the average shooter gets to see how he stacks up to the pros that don't attend their local match. Our Tulsa club at USSA is a 3GN club and the shooters haven't seen any ill effects such as increased match cost. Just like USPSA or IDPA if they want to join to play the can if not they don't have to. Heck a bunch of new shooters are getting to read articles in their 3GN magazine that they could never get before without reading thru trash threads like this on forums. It's great having an organization that's trying to do more. Notice how I didn't say govern cause they aren't trying to tell anybody how to do their match they are doing it all themselves.

If USPSA would have done the same thing years ago it would have worked too.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Ok I'll play, Jesse what do you propose to pay folks for working the matches? I can tell you right now a free match and free room and board for the time of the match doesn't even come close to "compensation" when you look at travel, time off work, days un paid....etc. Now by your definition that makes them paid employees, but if you add it all up you would make more at 7-11.. I would call them volunteer still, but obviously you don't, so how you going to sweeten the pot. Lets take it local, what do we now pay the guy who sets up, the guys who help run squads, the guy who runs the timer? They already get a free match for setting up, what do we pay them onto of that. Your great at talking big picture, so lets get down and talk about what and how. You obviously have given this a great deal of thought, lets have you line your plan out. Give me some details, not just aggrandizement!!!

Kurt we both know you're smarter than the average bear. I don't think I need to go thru Econ class and opportunity cost with you.

[Sterling White]

Ok I'll play, Jesse what do you propose to pay folks for working the matches? I can tell you right now a free match and free room and board for the time of the match doesn't even come close to "compensation" when you look at travel, time off work, days un paid....etc. Now by your definition that makes them paid employees, but if you add it all up you would make more at 7-11.. I would call them volunteer still, but obviously you don't, so how you going to sweeten the pot. Lets take it local, what do we now pay the guy who sets up, the guys who help run squads, the guy who runs the timer? They already get a free match for setting up, what do we pay them onto of that. Your great at talking big picture, so lets get down and talk about what and how. You obviously have given this a great deal of thought, lets have you line your plan out. Give me some details, not just aggrandizement

Kurt we both know you're smarter than the average bear. I don't think I need to go thru Econ class and opportunity cost with you.

I'm not sure that is the response that was being asked for.... however ducking a question is sometimes good.

I say...don't do it! Your digging a hole.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Ok I'll play, Jesse what do you propose to pay folks for working the matches? I can tell you right now a free match and free room and board for the time of the match doesn't even come close to "compensation" when you look at travel, time off work, days un paid....etc. Now by your definition that makes them paid employees, but if you add it all up you would make more at 7-11.. I would call them volunteer still, but obviously you don't, so how you going to sweeten the pot. Lets take it local, what do we now pay the guy who sets up, the guys who help run squads, the guy who runs the timer? They already get a free match for setting up, what do we pay them onto of that. Your great at talking big picture, so lets get down and talk about what and how. You obviously have given this a great deal of thought, lets have you line your plan out. Give me some details, not just aggrandizement

Kurt we both know you're smarter than the average bear. I don't think I need to go thru Econ class and opportunity cost with you.

I'm not sure that is the response that was being asked for.... however ducking a question is sometimes good.

I say...don't do it! Your digging a hole.

Thanks for your input Sterling. So you're for a governing body then or was it against?

If you want me to answer a hypothetical question with details I can make numbers up real easy.

If you would be more specific on financial details I'd be more than happy to provide a suggestion on how to spend a clubs match fees.

Heck look at the rock castle match Bryan mentioned. With 114 shooters at $20 each you can hire union workers to build stages and run timers. Our little club never hit 50 shooters. So we don't have enough $ to buy dump barrels.

Let take the old high plain match if you want an example. I RO'd the last two. I was willing to trade my day off work for a free $150 match fee. I also enjoy seeing all the shooters shoot my stages. Now if I would have had to take two days off work to help setup or tear down I would have required more compensation to make up for the lost wages.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

I'd like there to be an easily searchable listing of 3 gun clubs/matches like there is for USPSA or IDPA. The match announcements threads here and at 3gn/ar15.com are the closest thing available, but it's nice to be able to enter a location and see the closest matches. Other than that, I'm still fine with no governing body as long as individual matches clearly indicate which rules they will be using.

There is http://3gunnation.com/club_series/club_directory

I emailed 3GN about the other 5 or so additional local 3 gun matches that take place monthly in Florida and they never added them! So if you want to shoot 3 gun in FL let me know i can tell you where and when! They are only showing 3GN affiliated clubs not "Outlaw" local matches.

That list is all the 3GN club matches. If you want your Florida matches on their list they gotta pay their dues. USPSA doesn't put non affiliated clubs on their website.

I maintain the thread below. Send me the info on your clubs and I'll add them.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_13_1/322_3_Gun_Match_Listings_by_State.html

Edited March 11, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

Nope, I agree completely this is something I said a while ago as well, but I didn't do it near as concisely. Great post!

I remember you saying it awhile ago. Here's the thread.

Talk about never picking a fight!

https://www.okshooters.com/showthread.php?163768-3-Gun-at-OKCGC-Saturday-Jan-26-2013

I'm glad you clarified things for me that our club matches need more help rather than less new shooters. I'll start recruiting ROs along with new shooters from now on.

[kurtm]

Make them good ones I can trust, not just union workers from the rubber plant.

[kurtm]

Couple quick observations:

The up sides you put numbers by were personal up sides.

An on line magazine that you pay for, is hardly the best venue to dispel info.....but works great for the magazine company.

Trash threads like this.... and yet you type, and type some more. And even find more trash to bring in from other web sites!.

Buy some land,set up your range and make the millions you deserve, while you still know how.

Edited March 11, 2014 by kurtm

[Sterling White]

Ok I'll play, Jesse what do you propose to pay folks for working the matches? I can tell you right now a free match and free room and board for the time of the match doesn't even come close to "compensation" when you look at travel, time off work, days un paid....etc. Now by your definition that makes them paid employees, but if you add it all up you would make more at 7-11.. I would call them volunteer still, but obviously you don't, so how you going to sweeten the pot. Lets take it local, what do we now pay the guy who sets up, the guys who help run squads, the guy who runs the timer? They already get a free match for setting up, what do we pay them onto of that. Your great at talking big picture, so lets get down and talk about what and how. You obviously have given this a great deal of thought, lets have you line your plan out. Give me some details, not just aggrandizement

Kurt we both know you're smarter than the average bear. I don't think I need to go thru Econ class and opportunity cost with you.

I'm not sure that is the response that was being asked for.... however ducking a question is sometimes good.

I say...don't do it! Your digging a hole.

Thanks for your input Sterling. So you're for a governing body then or was it against?

If you want me to answer a hypothetical question with details I can make numbers up real easy.

If you would be more specific on financial details I'd be more than happy to provide a suggestion on how to spend a clubs match fees.

Heck look at the rock castle match Bryan mentioned. With 114 shooters at $20 each you can hire union workers to build stages and run timers. Our little club never hit 50 shooters. So we don't have enough $ to buy dump barrels.

Let take the old high plain match if you want an example. I RO'd the last two. I was willing to trade my day off work for a free $150 match fee. I also enjoy seeing all the shooters shoot my stages. Now if I would have had to take two days off work to help setup or tear down I would have required more compensation to make up for the lost wages.

Time is money and your not giving your time or gas unless there is some type of compensation. I get it..... If every person that worked on, worked at, or administrated a match came in with that attitude there may not be very many matches to shoot, agree? Talk with Mr. Gibson about his experiences with the first half dozen or so Ironmans. There were many times we never really knew if the next one was going to happen or not, BUT - it was the encouragement and commitment of shooters/helpers that kept it going. Basically what it boils down too is people and attitudes.

[GentlemanJim]

Most new shooters want to learn and want to help.

Most want to be a part of the larger community and the sport in general.

I dislike the (whats in it for me crowd) or the (I wont go to that match...not enough prize table type guys)

There I stepped in it!!

Jim

[mpeltier]

Make them good ones I can trust, not just union workers from the rubber plant.

He said they would be union workers....

[mpeltier]

Just kidding. Don't mean to stir the pot.

This thread has been interesting. Two sides and many opinions to this question. I see both sides and both have good points. My preferance is no governing body because I personally like the diversity of the differant matches and loath paying dues for an organization that in the end gets my money and gives me nothing in return but a magazine. Outlaw matches are put on by the shooters for the shooters and it shows in the quality of their matches.

[alma]

Nope, I agree completely this is something I said a while ago as well, but I didn't do it near as concisely. Great post!

I remember you saying it awhile ago. Here's the thread.

Talk about never picking a fight!

https://www.okshooters.com/showthread.php?163768-3-Gun-at-OKCGC-Saturday-Jan-26-2013

I'm glad you clarified things for me that our club matches need more help rather than less new shooters. I'll start recruiting ROs along with new shooters from now on.

Jesse,

How many people used your shotgun at that match?

[kurtm]

Alma, you might also ask how many used one of my rifles or shotguns, or how much gear Tony Wall lent out, or Will Richter, or how much on sight Gunsmithing Mike Cyrwus's and I do to keep the shooters running. I think you need to do some checking before you think Jesse is the only altruistic shooter in the world, which by his post about compensation indicates he isn't

[alma]

I am not always the sharpest knife in the drawer. I followed the link and saw some match photos. In multiple photos I noticed what I assumed was Jesse's shotgun because it looks like it's racing in Nascar with all of the stickers on it.
I am not sure why that question was taken as being offensive and what kind of research that you think I should have done before mentioning a course observation. I wasn't there and I am positive that many others helped but this just stuck out to me in the pictures. No offense intended to anyone else.
As I have not shot 3 Gun since 2005 (and that was local) I would actually be very interested in hearing your take on the typical type of assistance being offered at matches. It's great to see how the community and the more experienced shooters step in to help the others. Not to mention all of the work that goes into match planning, setting up, administration, and take down.
I haven't read the comments on this thread in detail because it seemed that there were some strong opinions on either side.
Enough cannot be said about the local MDs and others who actually make the matches happen. I spent a few years as an MD for a local USPSA club so I know the thankless hours that go into that.
I understand the concerns about 3GN taking over buy I will say that I think it has brought some well deserved attention to the shooting sports and it personally got me excited about getting back into 3 Gun.
I couldn't have imagined how much the game has changed in the last 10 years.
The changes seem to make it much faster and easier to set up and run a match and have made it more accessible from a gear perspective.
I understand the resistance to having a formal governance structure but as a resurrected 3 Gun shooter looking at different matches in my area I am very confused about minor differences in equipment and rules that seem to mean little to the overall operation of the match. It makes sense that 3 Gun matches should be built on a common set of rules while giving clubs some ability to modify rules for particular circumstances.
At the same time common rules can help shooters to know what strategies should be used for best performance. They can also help stage designers and match directors since stage design parameters incorporate best practices for safety and efficiency of running the stage and match.

Edited March 13, 2014 by alma

[kurtm]

Sorry Alma, I let the heat get to my head. Most all our local shotguns look the same. Lots of stickers! As long as they are I am waiting for one to show up with Sheakspear on it.

I don't think 3_gun needs a governing body, but it sure could use a unified equipment rule set. Just my buck oh five.

[BrianATL]

Unified equipment list would be nice

[millsusaf]

Please do not turn 3-gun into the bickering fest that is lased with ridiculous rules and restrictions like USPSA and IDPA are.

Look at those forums, do we really want that?

Don't be like the federal government thinking you can control things with more rules and restrictions.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[GentlemanJim]

Nope, I agree completely this is something I said a while ago as well, but I didn't do it near as concisely. Great post!

I remember you saying it awhile ago. Here's the thread.

Talk about never picking a fight!

https://www.okshooters.com/showthread.php?163768-3-Gun-at-OKCGC-Saturday-Jan-26-2013

I'm glad you clarified things for me that our club matches need more help rather than less new shooters. I'll start recruiting ROs along with new shooters from now on.

Jesse,

How many people used your shotgun at that match?

Well...I have seen kurt win a rifle at a match...and then just give it to a junior shooter that was there with borrowed gear.

[Sterling White]

I know a certain shotgun manufacturer that donated a complete race ready box-fed shotgun for a prize table with the requirement that it go to the person who finished closest to 50% and I have the benefit of knowing that person. His smile is as just as big now as it was on the day that he was given the boomstick.

[bigbrowndog]

Well I think post #94 by Mr. P, pretty much says a lot I can agree with, and a retort on post#97 pretty much solidifies what I already knew, about the "new" generation of multigunners.

What used to be, "let me help" or "can I help" or "what can I do to help" has become,.................."what do I get out of it", or "whats in it for me" or "thats not my job" or "i'm too busy"

Too much "expected" and not enough "offer", sadly a lot of the more experienced of us are getting burned, or backstabbed by the "new generation" even after we had "offered" to help with them getting started in this sport.

Sad state of affairs,

on a side note Jesse you stated in a previous topic that 3GN wasn't making any money and the originators of it hadn't received compensation for anything, you made the comment like you had firsthand info on the accounts and balances, has that changed??? are they making money now???

Oh and I made my opinions to the OP way back on page one!!

Trapr

Edited March 14, 2014 by bigbrowndog

[Brian Payne]

Trapr,

My oldest son Nathan and I were discussing this same topic just the other day. We came to the conclusion that there are still a lot of like minded people getting into our sport, both new generation and old, that have the same values and work ethic that got this sport started in the first place.

The MN3GunGroup was founded on the principles of volunteering your time, mentoring the new shooters, and promoting an atmosphere of competition with an emphasis on fun and safety. This coming Saturday we are having a 3-gun match where the temps are going to be a high of 20 degrees. The people putting on the match will show up at 0730 hrs. to start setup, shooters are encouraged to come early to assist. All they will receive in return is answers to questions they may have, and helpful hints and advice for shooting the matches and equipment needs. Even the people putting on the match pay their entry fee just like everybody else. We have grown to an all time high of (I think) 88 shooters at one match last year and I wouldn't be surprised if 40-50 people show for this one. Of those, at least 20 - 25 will come early to help with set up even knowing they will receive nothing in return. A few shooters show up, pay their fee, shoot, then leave. I am good with that, I hope they have a good time and come back again. But it is that 20-25 people that come early, the questions they have, the excitement they show, the friends they bring with at the next match, THAT is what keeps me going in the sport.

If there are a select few that are in it for the notariety, the money, or to be the next Youtube sensation, I am good with that. I will admit that my focus is not in that area, I will also admit that my skill level prohibits me from trying to spend a lot of time focusing in that area. I am good with that as well.

And to answer the original question of this thread. I personally do not want a unified set of rules, or one governing body running 3-gun.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Brian Payne