P-16 for Limited

[JFD]

I’ve gotten my B card in L-10 with a .45 Kimber Custom Target. Love the gun, love L-10, love reloading all the time…..

However….I’ve been having these urges lately to give Limited a try with a bit more mag capacity.

I’ve got a 16” Bushmaster in the safe that I like, but I never shoot it. Plan on selling it to finance the Limited gun.

I can’t see spending the cash on a S_I. I know that’s the better option from reading various threads, but I’m thinking of a Para P16. While I’ve never had a .40 (do have a 10mm), I’ve got brass and dies, so ammo isn’t a problem. Was also thinking about a Glock, but I shoot my own cast bullets and I’m not about to buy a gun that needs a new barrel to shoot lead. I’m not big on plastic either, which is another reason S_I isn’t something I want.

I’d like your help in determining what the particular MUST HAVE items are. While my plan is to shoot Limited, I’m likely shoot it in L-10 until I feel like I can comfortably switch back and forth between the wide body and the single stack gun. I imagine it will be hard to break my “reload often” habit.

If there’s such thing as a cheap but reliable mag, I’d be interested in getting a few of these to download for L-10 and practice. Maybe this is a bad idea.

For Limited, how many mags do I need (I figure 4 or 5), and what trick base pads/springs/followers/whatever are the best to get the capacity up to 19 – 20 rounds?

I see there’s 3 or 4 mag wells available, which one do I get? I’ve got a Dremel and I’m not afraid to use it, but it would suit me to just drill the hole for my Ghost and be done with metal work.

I’m trying to keep the initial costs down this close to Christmas, so I’m willing to work with the stock trigger unless it’s just horrible. I’m happy with my drop in 3.5 lb Nowlin trigger kit for the Kimber, so I figure I’ll get the same thing for the Para.

I’m not too worried about grips, as I plan on just getting anything smooth and cutting Eric’s 1911 TruGrips to fit the panels. I’ll use the leftovers for the front. If that’s a bad idea, let me know.

Typically I've got a barney mag in my right back pocket and a full mag in my left back pocket for LAMR, so I'm guessing a pair of mag pouches is all I need. I normally make my own, but I think I'll just buy a pair of them this time.

That’s all I can think of right now as all of my Brownells catalog drooling has been single stack related.

Thanks for any help you can give.

[benny hill]

Good sights, good trigger & a accurate barrel. LOTS of practice.

[Greg G]

I found the stock trigger and mag release on my P16-40 limited to be pretty average (both plastic) I could never shoot a decent group through the stock bbl either.

[JFD]

If the barrels tend to be bad I may have to rethink things. Will have to see if that's a trend or not. I wonder if Para would fix it if the accuracy sucked.

Was also considering getting a SVI frame (dispite my dislike for plastic) and sticking my Kimber .45 slide on it. I'm not sure how many rounds I can get in the mags though, but I'm thinking 16 or so. That's not very good if nearly everyone else is stoked up with 18 - 19+ rounds.

[Larry White]

I would still suggest a sti or sv by one of the better smiths( read that Benny Hill if you want). If you are dead set on a para call Dave Dawson for one of his tuned and enhanced limited paras, get his base pads and the rest of your mags while your at it. One stop limited gun.--------Larry

[.40AET]

Was also considering getting a SVI frame (dispite my dislike for plastic) and sticking my Kimber .45 slide on it.

It's unlikely that the two will fit correctly. Realizing that you aren't in love with the plastic fantastic (neither was I) you should still try to find a friend with an S*I and shoot it as much as they will let you. I had 2 Para's, and would gladly pay the money for an S*I (even though I'm broke all of the time) to get the quality that comes with a better engineered gun.

If there’s such thing as a cheap but reliable mag

Nothing personal, but Bwahahahahahahhaah. Sorry, no cheap stuff in Limited or Open. Para mags are about $10 cheaper than STI mags and the Para mags are the weak link in gun. S*I mags are far superior to the Para mags. Just pick up both and compare.

Just my $.02 YMMV.

[Caspian_45]

JFD

My Para .45 will hold 17+1 and thats it. I'm not sure but I think the S_I guns in 45 are one round less. My Para 45 still shoots good groups with the factory barrel and it's got thousands and thousands of rounds through it. It took me to 12th OAL at the '96 limited nationals. Of course I haven't seen it in years. It's in the safe under or behind somethin' ..........er .........I think.

See if you can try some different guns out before you buy.

Good luck

[warpspeed]

JFD,

The biggest problem I've seen with Para's is the durability. I've seen 2 bushings break - both Para's. By the time you replace the barrel, trigger job & sights you are already at a used STI.

Check the USPSA classifieds and quite often you can pick up a deal.

On the other hand, if you are trully on a budget, I would think a Glock would be an excelent choice.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Personally i never had a BIG problem with para's accuracy, but have shot MANY more accurate guns.

Maybe a caspian wide body? not sure what they have done since the ban, you don't like plastic so Kimber is out.

Para guns are problematic in my experience i've only had one of 3 that ran worth a crap without a lot of gunsmithing work to them.

[Kimberkid]

I had a Para for a couple years and it ran 100% all the time. Saying that, if I were to buy another limited gun, it would be an S-I without a doubt. Check the USPSA forums and you can usually find one with a couple mags for not much more than a Para. Para mags all suck, best you can hope for is to find the least sucky ones. I had an Ed Brown magwell on mine, and it blew. S&A would prolly be your best bet, but I believe it requires cutting of the frame. I would also highly encourage you to shoot an S-I before you throw down what is gonna be over a grand for sure.

[JFD]

Crap!

This is not good.

The "I wasted money on Paras but am now thrilled with my S_I" statement is heard way too often at this site to ignore it. Locally, the IDPA shooters love the Para, yet the USPSA shooters don't. I guess I already know who's putting more rounds out of their guns, so I'll have to stick with my USPSA guys.

This is not good. I could get over my issue with plastic. I really could. I can also afford a custom S_I. However there's a value issue for me personally. I don't value what an S_I offers enough to drop $2000+ on it and a few mags. I can already see that my Kimber is good enough to take me as far a I'm capable of going in L-10, and as far as just shooting classifiers goes, it would easily get me an A card in Limited. Realistically, that is as good as my 41 year old, arthritic, non-athletic self is going to get. If my new (and great) job allows me more time than I think it will, then maybe a M card could happen. Of course I need more rounds in the gun to be competitive in my class, so that's where the para comes into play (and it's price).

I really, really wanted the para to be a realistic option. Years ago I wouldn't have cared, but now I'm only willing to spend $1000 on what is basically a toy for me.

Since I've seen the current prices for standard cap glock mags, I admit I've been thinking a glock is probably the best bet. The initial cost is good and there's only so much I can do with it. I know there's a thread going right now concerning glock tuning, so no need to get into that here.

The para has to be out of the running. After hearing too many negative comments here about the para, and seeing the polite, yet negative reactions I've gotten locally when I've mentioned the para (USPSA shooters anyway), and after removing my own price related blinders, I'd probably never have confidence in a para. Just like golf, lack of confidence in your equipment leads to a lack of performance.

Other than my dislike for plastic, I have nothing against the glock except I'm pissed about having to drop a new barrel in it right from the start. I guess I'm going to have to comfort myself with the thought that the cheap mags will make up for having to buy a barrel.

On the upside, learning a new style gun could perk me up and out of the bummed state I've been in since I shut down my USPSA match (nobody willing to step up and help).

At the very least, I won't end up being one of those guys who can say "I wasted my money on a para". I do know the glock won't be wasted money if it functions well and can manage the same(or close) accuracy as my Kimber. Even if I hated the thing, it would be a good house gun for my wife. She sucks with my 686 or any other revolver I've had her try, shoots my ESP .38 super well enough to keep 10 rounds in the A/C zone at 15 yards, but won't put in enough practice for me to trust her with it under stress. She needs an auto that needs nothing more than the trigger pulled to make it work. The glock certainly fills that role.

Looking at it as a definite workable house gun, I can just leave it completely stock while I check it out as a possible Limited gun. If I hate it, it goes in my wife's nightstand once I confirm she shoots it better than a revolver (I have no doubt that she will).

Sorry for the long post, but I'm wierd and need to type in order to get rid of my wishful thinking.

[Dead Buff]

JFD

I've been shooting my Para P16 for a couple of years now, thousends of rounds each year. So far I replaced the sights with a Bo-Mar rear, my own front, put in a two-piece full length steel guid rod, replaced the recoil spring with a (I think) 18 or 20 lb, red shok buff and.....no, thats it....

Accuracy with good bullets is good (±30mm at 25m - off hand). I don't see a use for a magwell with that big hole and sharply tapered mags - for now at least. Meggar mags (I think from Italy) are real cheap (±USD 40 over here) compared to Para mags (±USD 160 over here). They hold only 15 x .40Short&Weak but work good as stripper/emergancy mags. I've got 3 Para mags, two with the Rescomp shoe (for 18 rounds IPSC box compatible), the other the normal 16 rounds (17 if no-one is watching.... ).

[Flexmoney]

You can probably find a used Glock with an aftermarket barrel...then show up on the USPSA classifieds fairly often.

[Harmon]

or buy a used police glock and have a bar-sto barrel fitted for less money than you could get a decent para for.

glock trigger jobs are simple, and magazines(that hold 20 rounds) are cheap.

other than that, the only thing a limited gun really needs is to run and be somewhat accurate. used glock is about the cheapest Limited division gun..and probably tougher than para.

[JFD]

Speaking of the used glocks, I've seen these things at CDNN really cheap.

Would I be sticking a new barrel in a worn out piece of crap, or are the police trade-ins beat-up, but hardly fired?

I don't much care what it looks like as my guns quite being "play pretties" years ago.

Of course I think the glock could be an interesting challenge and I also have an alternative use for it, so I've got no problem buying a new one.

Thanks for the help. I guess I need to check out the Glock forum (Oh My God, not ME in the Glock forum) to see what's being said. Hopefully someone has already asked about setting up a G22 for Limited.

[Merlin Orr]

Would I be sticking a new barrel in a worn out piece of crap, or are the police trade-ins beat-up, but hardly fired?

"Most" police guns are fired only as required by the department - once a year as a proficiency check....Some officers shoot for enjoyment - but very few....

[spd522]

I have 3 Paras I have used for Competition since the early 90's.

A P18-9mm for IDPA ESP and occasionally Limited class when I haven't loaded any 45s. Sometimes I use it just because I prefer to leave 9mm brass over 45 brass.

A P14 built from the gunsmith frame for CDP, L-10, and with my Grams base pads, 18+1 for Limited.

A 38 Super for Open class with bells and whistles.

All use factory Para Mags although I do have one STI/PO mag for the Super.

All run great and don't cause me any grief except when I cause it myself.

All are only limited by the ability of the shooter.

Even with changing out marginal factory parts, the investment is about half of the plastic guns.

Don't fall for the "all the USPSA guys use them so they must be better" theory. Guys spend lots of money on guns trying to have the latest gimmick and be packing the same as their favorite big dog. And then Robbie continues to kick their butt in L10 with a single stack..........................

Get the gun you want and spend the extra on practice ammo. You will be ahead in the long run.

[JFD]

spd522

My problem is while the para fits my sense of "traditional style", the price is right, and the capacity is right, what I'm hearing from well respected USPSA shooters locally has been very negative. Reading waaaay too many threads here shows a definite minority favoring paras.

If I was younger, I'd say "screw those guys" and buy a para and take my chances. However over the years I've taken many chances on guns and they've never worked out for me. I'm going to have to listen to the majority this time.

Not that I'm going to get a S_I. Too much money for something I just don't value that highly. A 1911 (sort of) with that much plastic just doesn't make me drool at all. That everyone has one turns me off a little too, but I figure they wouldn't all have one if they were not pretty damn good.

That you and Dead Buff have paras that are hot stuff is great, I know a lot of IDPA guys who love their LDAs too. One day I might just give a para a try, but it's going to have to wait a while for now. I'm definitely going to keep track of the local paras, just to see if the owners are still happy after a couple of years.

I do thank everyone for taking the time to help me out.

[skeeter]

i started with a para and if your handy with guns and keep an eye on all the springs and such it will serve you well. i switched to a glock in 97 and thats all i've shoot since. just get either and shoot you can't go wrong. by the way i use to shoot lead in my glock barrel and all i can say is some brands work good and others don't. so try your lead in the glock before you spend the money on a new barrel.

[JFD]

Any clue as to whether hard or soft bullets work better? I cast my own and can do either.

[skeeter]

i had the best luck with a good hard bullet that has a soft lube. the ones that were hard but also had a hard lube were the worst. i mean a lube so hard that you could break it out of the grove.

[Sandro]

You may want to look at the Para made by Dawson. It is a very good value.

Good luck!

[JFD]

I'm a big user of hard lubes. Rooster Red Zambini and Blue Angel. Soft lubes are a heck of a lot easier to use, so it's easy to try.

[toddrod]

JFD,

If you listen to all the STI/SVI shooters on this board you will put yourself into a never ending equipment race with everyone. I did what you are thinking about doing, going limited for cheap. I started with a P14-45 in limited that I paid $650 for with 5 high cap mags. I shot this for 6 monthes then bought a used P16-40 with 4 high caps(21 rounds in each) for $900. Both guns shoot extremely well and nothing has broken on them in over 10,000 rounds through each. I have seen more shooters fixing STI/SVI guns because they could not get them to run, and my Paras just keep running. As for as the mags being crap, that is crap. I have all Para brand mags with Dawson pads and Para springs and they run fine straight from the box. This gun shoots better than I can shoot it and I just made B class with it.

And just remember this, Todd Jarrett wins with Para, Eric G. with Tangfolio and Leatham with Springfield, which is built like a Para, so don't let anyone bully you into spending more money on equipment because it is the current fad.

This is my set up: Para SS P16-40, factory barrell, factory rear and Dawson front sight, factory trigger with trigger job, SS magizine release, Dawson ICE magwell, tungsten recoil guide, factory grips, factory mag and followers, Dawson mag bases. The gun had all this when I purchased it.

[toddrod]

And for those that will say for the price of both guns I could have bought an Edge, the P14-45 is now my target gun gun as it will put all 18 rounds in a 1 inch group of the bench at 20 yards, which is why I have not had it for sale before now.