650 swager

[twowheels]

I'd like to know your setup to be able to process in one pass as well. Although I shoot 25,000/yr of 9mm that same amount of 223 would probably be 2 lifetimes for me given my current shooting ... . That being said I'm all for making the 223 processing as simple as possible because maybe I'll shoot more if I make more ...

So, can you setup a single toolhead on a 650 to FL resize, deprime, swage & trim? I'd be using a Dillion RT-1200 for trimming ...

Theoretically, you set up one head with a deprime/resize at station 1, use the 650 swager at st 2, use the 1200 trimmer at st 3, and perhaps use a ball neck resizer at st 4. Then after you clean, you use your other head to load. Sounds good to me if it works, certainly better than trimming and swaging in separate steps.

[Scott Steele]

What neck resizer at station four?

Tell me a name brand and model.

Thanks

Scott

Edited November 19, 2013 by Scott Steele

[ziebart]

I use a lyman M-die. It puts just a little flare on the case mouth so seating bullets is easier. Have to be careful with it and I don't think its for everyone.

[twowheels]

I haven't done it yet, but I'm paying attention to people using the 650 swager. Also, I'm thinking of trying a redding 7111 type s neck sizing dye.

[Nimitz]

since the 650 swager is basically the same price at the Dillon 600 it seems like a eloquent solution assuming it works as advertised ...

[jmorris]

Theoretically, you set up one head with a deprime/resize at station 1, use the 650 swager at st 2, use the 1200 trimmer at st 3, and perhaps use a ball neck resizer at st 4.

The manifold on the Dillon trimmer is large enough in diameter that it prevents the ability of installing dies into a 650 tool head in adjacent stations. So you can put the trimmer at 3 and have dies in one and 5 but 2 and 4 are blocked. You will also need to make or modify the front tool head retaining pin to use the trimmer in #3.

Edited November 19, 2013 by jmorris

[gigs]

OK I got mine in the mail. I have not used it yet but here are my first impressions:

It uses a conical swage tip, as opposed to dillons straight pilot with a fillet. This means that it's not "self limiting" the way Dillon's is, you can't just ram it in there as hard as you want, like you can with the Dillon.

It also means that it is going to be expanding the first 1/3rd of the pocket diameter or so. I don't know what effect this has on primer pocket longevity.

Because of the conical section design, they use a thick square wire die-type spring, which limits the maximum protrusion. This prevents you from jamming it too hard into the pocket and getting it stuck or overexpanding too much of the pocket. It also unfortunately means that the swage level is not adjustable, as far as I can see.

This thick spring is also necessary because there's nothing to pull the rod out other than spring tension. The instructions actually say to grease the tip of the swage rod every 100 rounds! Ahem... well .. I don't want grease in my primer pockets, I don't know about you guys.

Anyway we will see what happens in actual use, but I'd say the bottom line is that this thing is exactly what you'd expect, it's the same thing that's been proposed and tried over and over through the years (which makes me wonder if the ebay guy can really get a patent on something that's been invented over and over for years, maybe we should send the USPTO some prior art).

[Steve RA]

It should be interesting and informative to hear of your experience with it after you get it installed and in use for awhile.

[Scott Steele]

Theoretically, you set up one head with a deprime/resize at station 1, use the 650 swager at st 2, use the 1200 trimmer at st 3, and perhaps use a ball neck resizer at st 4.

The manifold on the Dillon trimmer is large enough in diameter that it prevents the ability of installing dies into a 650 tool head in adjacent stations. So you can put the trimmer at 3 and have dies in one and 5 but 2 and 4 are blocked. You will also need to make or modify the front tool head retaining pin to use the trimmer in #3.

Thanks for this information.

[Scott Steele]

I use a lyman M-die. It puts just a little flare on the case mouth so seating bullets is easier. Have to be careful with it and I don't think its for everyone.

Thanks for this information. Tell me when its best to do neck expansion. Because I was looking at putting in station

1 - Dillon FL size/deprime/neck expander for .223 or Redding equivalent.

2 - GS custom primer pocket swage

3 - Dillon rapid trim 1200B for .223

5 - Lyman neck expander M die.

Sure seems to be a lot of neck expanding. Am I missing something?

On the load head

1 - Dillon universal deprimer

2 - primer/powder

3 - powder check

4 - Dillon bullet seater or Redding equivalent.

5 - Dillon tapper crimp or Redding equivalent.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Scott Steele

[anm2_man]

OK I got mine in the mail. I have not used it yet but here are my first impressions:

It uses a conical swage tip, as opposed to dillons straight pilot with a fillet. This means that it's not "self limiting" the way Dillon's is, you can't just ram it in there as hard as you want, like you can with the Dillon.

It also means that it is going to be expanding the first 1/3rd of the pocket diameter or so. I don't know what effect this has on primer pocket longevity.

Because of the conical section design, they use a thick square wire die-type spring, which limits the maximum protrusion. This prevents you from jamming it too hard into the pocket and getting it stuck or overexpanding too much of the pocket. It also unfortunately means that the swage level is not adjustable, as far as I can see.

This thick spring is also necessary because there's nothing to pull the rod out other than spring tension. The instructions actually say to grease the tip of the swage rod every 100 rounds! Ahem... well .. I don't want grease in my primer pockets, I don't know about you guys.

Anyway we will see what happens in actual use, but I'd say the bottom line is that this thing is exactly what you'd expect, it's the same thing that's been proposed and tried over and over through the years (which makes me wonder if the ebay guy can really get a patent on something that's been invented over and over for years, maybe we should send the USPTO some prior art).

When I got mine, it didn't specify lubing the tip of the swage. I have tested it on .308 &.223 and it works well. My main reloading caliber is 30-06 but I just made more (ie shot), so I can test it. The only time I sort any brass is after its been reloaded once. Then it goes into a No-Swage bucket. But any brass that is shot once, it all gets swaged. Much easer than sorting.

But this tool seems to work ok. All the pockets were nice and tight (you could feel the primer being inserted) as it should be.

As far as adjustment, the first spring (which was weaker and thinner than the second spring which he now ships, you could adjust the dept by inserting a .010", .020' etc washer inside the spring at the bottom. I also experimented with shiming the punch support block. But I don't think it will work with the new spring, since it is stronger & thicker.

Note he also makes a .020" longer large primer swage. That was one of my complaints a couple of months ago. That is why I was testing shiming the device. I've had the same problem with my 600. I always try to set it up to swage as deep as possible, so that I have no problems when it comes time to prime those cartridges, but if it isn't deep enough, you will have cartridges that will not accept a primer .

[Nimitz]

Given that I'm only looking at a few thousand 223 rds a year I'm leaning toward sticking with batch processing and getting a Dillion 600 swager ... Just seems a little more straight forward given the amounts I'm looking at ...

I assume it doesn't matter if you tumble and swage everything first then FL rezsize, deprime and trim vice tumble, FL resize, deprime and trim, then swage?

If not, any advantage to one order over the other?

[Guest]

Hard to swage the primer pocket with the primer still installed, so you might as well resize and decap at the same time.

[Nimitz]

Yeah. Guess I should have thought more and typed less .... Obviously I need to FL resize and deprime first so I guess my process will be:

Tumble

Toolhead 1: FL resize, deprime, trim

Swage w/Dillon 600

Tool head 2: primer, powder, bullet seat, crimp

[Sarge]

Is there something simple that would fit in a little LEE single stage for just doing a bucket of 9mm?

[twowheels]

The uniquetek head should work with the 1200 in stage 3 I believe.

I think I'm going to try an all in one pass .223 brass process. Life is to short to prime and decap, then swage one at a time with a 600, then chamfer, then tumble, and finally load. I just don't have the patience for all those steps. It makes a guy almost want to buy off the shelf ammo, except for the limited availability, the price, and the fact that my loads are way more accurate.

Theoretically, you set up one head with a deprime/resize at station 1, use the 650 swager at st 2, use the 1200 trimmer at st 3, and perhaps use a ball neck resizer at st 4.

The manifold on the Dillon trimmer is large enough in diameter that it prevents the ability of installing dies into a 650 tool head in adjacent stations. So you can put the trimmer at 3 and have dies in one and 5 but 2 and 4 are blocked. You will also need to make or modify the front tool head retaining pin to use the trimmer in #3.

[Too_Slow]

Sarge check out the CH4D Primer Swage kit "419001 Swage Kit". It runs $24.00 and will work on any single stage press, for $33.00 you can get the combination swage and priming kit. Both kits come complete for both small and large primers.

Brian

[gigs]

I tried the 650 swager tonight. Short version, it barely did anything to the crimps. Will post a much more detailed review on my site tomorrow.

[Steve RA]

It would seem to me that when removing the crimp, that is really all you want to do. Some tools and people go a little overboard and enlarge the primer pocket which will lead to a lot less use from the brass. If the primers don't fit snugly you aren't going to get many reloads from that piece of brass.

[Sarge]

Sarge check out the CH4D Primer Swage kit "419001 Swage Kit". It runs $24.00 and will work on any single stage press, for $33.00 you can get the combination swage and priming kit. Both kits come complete for both small and large primers.

Brian

thanks I will look into it

[gigs]

I'm going to give it another shot before writing a full review, since people are saying it works for them. Will keep you posted.

[dickwholliday]

Over my 40 + years of reloading i thiink i've tried almost every method of swaging pockets.....one of them was the C&H one that is basically the same as this one for the 650....what i have found is that if there is not something inside the casing pushing it down on the swaging tool from the inside such as the 1050, the Dillon swager or the RCBS, you are asking for problems with the rim being deformed when it is unsupported while the swager is doing it's job....i remember the C&H one would pop a shell clean out of the shellholder and still wouldn[t do as good a job as the ones with a mandrel on the inside of the case

i finally settled onthe RCBS because it will make a pocket just like a factory non crimped ones without making the pocket too big like you can do with the dillon tool...seems like the last time i times myself i was doing between 15 and 20 per minute......D I C K

[gigs]

http://ballistictools.com/articles/650-swager-review.php

OK I've done the write up. Skip the to last section if you just care about the conclusions.

[MikeSLC]

Good write up, thanks for taking the time. In your conclusion you stated "priming difficulties may remain". However, I think the fundamental question is did the GS swaged cases actually result in more priming difficulties compared to other methods when it came time to load on the 650? In other words, does the difference in primer pocket geometry/diameter have any practical implications?

[jmorris]

The photos don't seem to match the descriptions.?