Controlling muzzle flip

[neckbone]

My G34 muzzle flips up too far for fast recovery and rapid second shot.

I see other shooters with mild flip and more straight back recoil.

I mentioned the lack of flip to a steel shooter at a match yesterday and he pointed to someone else who's gun and ammo he was using.

The other fellow said it was his magical load. It wasn't proper for me to pursue the issue with a match in progress.

So, I ask the question. What loads increase/decrease muzzle flip on a 9mm?

I didn't think it made that much difference.

I know, use a better grip. I have beat that one to death.

[Nimitz]

I shoot a G34 and have no visible recoil. Sorry to say but it's you not the gun or your load. Sure, shooting 130 PF load vice a 150 PF load in minor would help but you need to learn proper recoil control. There are 3 things you will need to fix to control recoil:

Your grip

Your grp

And your grip

I have spent a lot of time developing a proper grip. It is well worth the effort ...

[Jshuberg]

Don't lock your wrists, but use the muscles in your wrist on the underside of your forearms to resist backward and upward motion. The gun only recoils in one direction, so "locking" your wrists is an inefficient use of muscle tension, as doing so resists movement in all directions. There are 3 things that need to happen to manage recoil properly:

1) Your grip should be of sufficient strength so that the gun doesn't slip in your hands during recoil.

2) Your wrist muscles should be tensioned forward, acting as a spring so that the muzzle will return to proper alignment without additional effort.

3) The upper side of your forearms should be tensioned slightly downward, as if you were pulling down on a rope that doesn't move, so that the gun returns to the same point in space that it came from without additional effort.

The tension required is not very much, and you should use the least amount of muscle strength necessary for the "spring" to bring the weapon back to where it came from automatically. You should *not* be moving any muscles when firing the gun other than your trigger finger. If you move or tighten in anticipation of or in response to recoil, you are doing it wrong. Your arms should be fully extended, but don't lock your elbows. You want the recoil to happen, don't brace against it or try to eliminate it. Let the gun recoil, let the recoil energy be absorbed into your body, and then the "spring" created by your muscle tension automatically returns the gun to where it came from. Being properly relaxed and only using the minimal muscle strength is key. Don't fight or try to control the recoil, absorb it and manage what happens when the recoil energy subsides.

If you try to muscle away the effects of recoil, your fighting a losing game. If you allow the recoil to happen, and tension your muscles correctly so that the gun returns "after" the the muzzle flip, you will find that what ends up happening is that the muzzle flip becomes almost non-existent in the process. While this is kind of neat, it's not actually the goal - the goal is for the gun to snap back to where it came from automatically. If the gun returns in less time than you can physically reset and squeeze the trigger again, it doesn't really matter how much flip there was.

Using "special" loads or hardware might help initially, but you absolutely want to master the skill of managing recoil. If you try to bypass this skill with equipment, it's just going to hurt you in the long run. It's no different than installing training wheels on a bicycle instead of learning balance. Don't be that guy, develop your spring and practice stillness and relaxation when firing.

Hope this helps!

Edited November 10, 2013 by Jshuberg

[JimmyZip]

The above is what you do first. Then, with many rounds down the barrel, you may find a load that recoils to your desired impulse. I found that after I learned to properly watch my sights, and track them in recoil, combined with stance and index, the load no longer mattered. (Within reason, of course) You will begin to have less issues with muzzle flip as you build up the three. Some might say that stance and index are not important to recoil control. I might agree if we are talking static shooting of a single target at slow rates of fire. Usually, though, we are not.

JZ.

[kneelingatlas]

I'm thinking your support hand is to blame; search for some images of the way the top guns grip their pistols. As far as the loads go: heavier bullets take less powder to make minor PF so they shoot softer; 115gr bullets are pretty snappy.

[Gigglemonkee]

make your grip rock hard. get a grip master and just use it in your arm while at work or watching tv or movies constantly and it will tone up fast.

[Hi-Power Jack]

My G34 muzzle flips up too far

other shooters with mild flip .

What loads increase/decrease muzzle flip on a 9mm?

What ammo are you currently using?

Try 147 grain bullets with a fast powder at PF 135.

Your springs can also make a difference.

Also, the gun's weight can be a factor.

[ericjhuber]

I'm thinking your support hand is to blame; search for some images of the way the top guns grip their pistols. As far as the loads go: heavier bullets take less powder to make minor PF so they shoot softer; 115gr bullets are pretty snappy.

Yes, they are. I technically started doing USPSA in January of this year when I took my first intro class. It wasn't until May that I actually was able to start participating because it took that long to get ammo. The "bad" news is that only ammo I was able to get was 115 and 124 grain rounds. The good news is that I what I did buy was very well made stuff. The 124 grains are from Universal Shooting Academy so I save them for major matches especially when I shoot at USA. Seems wrong not to use USA ammo at USA events.

The 115 grain stuff is pretty snappy, but it's forced me to really learn how to control my Glock 34 Gen 4 through proper grip and stance so it's probably for the best.

My plan is to move over to USA 147 grain 9mm rounds once I need to make another purchase. I'm going to be very curious if I can feel any substantial difference or not from the 115 grains that I'm using for my local weekly matches.

make your grip rock hard. get a grip master and just use it in your arm while at work or watching tv or movies constantly and it will tone up fast.

Upper body strength is also something that seems to be a common feature of USPSA GMs. Look at pictures of guys like Manny Bragg and Shannon Smith when they are shooting and you can visibly see the work they put into their physical conditioning.

Also, the gun's weight can be a factor.

It's certainly an issue. That's one of the trade-off decisions you have to make in Production. If you go with a polymer striker fired pistol, you're looking at weights being in the mid-20 ounces or so unloaded. If you go for the DA/SA option, then the weights can be much more.

Once I move into Single Stack, I'm planning on converting my Glock 34 Gen 4 into something more appropriate for high round count steel matches (like the Monster Match), which will mean adding weight to it to help control muzzle flip. I figure i can easily get the unloaded weight into the 30s.

I'm also going to start using my Beretta 92FS for whenever I feel like shooting Production and it's a much heavier gun compared to the Glock so that should help with muzzle flip also.

[Flexmoney]

I know, use a better grip. I have beat that one to death.

Nah, you have work to do yet.

I used to shoot my major loads just as well (speed and accuracy) as my minor loads, in my Glock 35. In fact, I'd attribute the Major loads as a factor in helping me learn to run the (24oz) gun better.

[neckbone]

I know, use a better grip. I have beat that one to death.

Nah, you have work to do yet.

Agreed. The above posts have convinced me. Heading to the range today to focus on many of the suggestions.

Thank guys.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I know, use a better grip. I have beat that one to death.

Nah, you have work to do yet.

. Heading to the range today to focus on many of the suggestions.

Try a lesson from a local GM

[neckbone]

I fired over 300 rounds today.

I concentrated on "what was happening" during recoil.

Keeping the eye on the front site through recoil was not possible because it lifted so high.

Also found that the gun was rotating (up) in the support hand grip to where the hand had to be re-positioned (re establish the grip).

This was corrected somewhat by moving the hand forward to where the base of the left thumb was pressed against the right hand finger tips. This would keep the left thumb from sliding on the grip surface as much. May need better friction surface.

What helped a return to battery and less muzzle flip was increasing the right hand grip pressure.

When trying to speed up the second shot there is a tendency to anticipate recoil with the predictable flinch. Had to fight that off.

Overall, I saw improvement, but it does not seem natural just yet.

[Hi-Power Jack]

the gun was rotating (up) in the support hand grip to where the hand had to be re-positioned

Might help to exert more pressure with support hand - it shouldn't rotate.

[ericjhuber]

I put up some pictures of my last match on my YouTube channel. If it helps to compare, this is me with a Glock 34 Gen 4 and those snappy 115 grain rounds I posted about before. The "Stage 3" video shows my current grip which has really helped my game. I have my left thumb extended pretty far and my left wrist locked. I doesn't help my initial buzzer brain which is why I did awful on those first two pieces of steel, but you can see what happens with the next two once I calm down.

Mind you, I make no claims at being any good at this, but my grip has improved quite a bit from the initial clown show that it was earlier in the year.

Someone who is good at this is Michelle Viscusi from Team Glock. This is very good video of her at the 2013 Production Nationals with some good left side shots that show her grip and stance.

Edited November 11, 2013 by ericjhuber

[Hi-Power Jack]

The "Stage 3" video shows my current grip which has really helped my game.

I'm only a C shooter with a Limited gun, so don't put too much faith in this, but

Stage 3 looks pretty good to me Not the amount of recoil I expected

from reading your post.

Seems to me, you're on the way now. Good luck.

[Flexmoney]

I fired over 300 rounds today.

I concentrated on "what was happening" during recoil.

Keeping the eye on the front site through recoil was not possible because it lifted so high.

Also found that the gun was rotating (up) in the support hand grip to where the hand had to be re-positioned (re establish the grip).

I knew that would be the case.

Your strong hand it doing the work of "holding the gun in recoil". I think you need to get to where the support hand is doing that work.

[toothguy]

I fired over 300 rounds today.

I concentrated on "what was happening" during recoil.

Keeping the eye on the front site through recoil was not possible because it lifted so high.

Also found that the gun was rotating (up) in the support hand grip to where the hand had to be re-positioned (re establish the grip).

This was corrected somewhat by moving the hand forward to where the base of the left thumb was pressed against the right hand finger tips. This would keep the left thumb from sliding on the grip surface as much. May need better friction surface.

What helped a return to battery and less muzzle flip was increasing the right hand grip pressure.

When trying to speed up the second shot there is a tendency to anticipate recoil with the predictable flinch. Had to fight that off.

Overall, I saw improvement, but it does not seem natural just yet.

Try some ProGrip lotion on the support hand palm and the finger tips of the strong hand.

http://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/ProGrip-Enhancer-Lotion-2-oz-P493.aspx

[ericjhuber]

The "Stage 3" video shows my current grip which has really helped my game.

I'm only a C shooter with a Limited gun, so don't put too much faith in this, but

Stage 3 looks pretty good to me Not the amount of recoil I expected

from reading your post.

Seems to me, you're on the way now. Good luck.

That's very kind of you. I went from a U to a C in Production not that long ago and that's almost exclusively due to the fact that I have a very good home club. Wyoming Antelope Club in Tampa is overflowing with really great shooters who are generous with their knowledge and are pretty patient with new guys like me.

I have a long ways to go before I consider myself any good at this, but one thing I'm working on more is the mental game. That Stage 3 video is a pretty good example. Buzzer goes off....brain goes to oatmeal... and I spend about half a mag on two steel targets. I calm down....and drop the next two with just two rounds.

I'm a very streaky shooter at this point (just look at my classification scores....they're all over the place). Some stages are coming together and some are just clown shows. The "First FTE" video I have up on the channel is a good example. Tanked my whole match because of a mental failure on that stage, but I learn each time I screw up like that so it's all good.

The important thing is that I'm having an immense amount of fun even when I have a bad stage.

[neckbone]

I fired over 300 rounds today.

I concentrated on "what was happening" during recoil.

Keeping the eye on the front site through recoil was not possible because it lifted so high.

Also found that the gun was rotating (up) in the support hand grip to where the hand had to be re-positioned (re establish the grip).

I knew that would be the case.

Your strong hand it doing the work of "holding the gun in recoil". I think you need to get to where the support hand is doing that work.

Yeah, you called it. I couldn't grip with the left hand hard enough to stop the slip and rotate. I will be picking up some grip tape today. More pressure with the right hand helped quite a bit. Pro-grip stuff sounds interesting, toothguy. May look into that.

Thanks.

[Cy Soto]

I mentioned the lack of flip to a steel shooter at a match...

If by "steel shooter" you mean someone who is shooting Steel Challenge, you should consider the fact that this discipline does not have a minimum power factor requirement.

[BeerBaron]

ok, a couple of pieces of advice from me.

Most of it is grip for sure. as others have stated it's the support hand that should be controlling the muzzle lift.

BUT loads definitely have an influence.

don't forget your glock being polymer framed and light at the muzzle end is going to always lift much more than a steel framed 1911 etc.

My experience with loads is as follows.

let's assume all loaded to 130pf (so heavier bullets have less powder, lighter bullets more powder).

assume a medium fast to fast burning powder.

and we are talking 9mm.

a heavier bullet with less powder will have less felt recoil (push back into your strong hand palm). the gun will cycle more slowly. and you will get more muzzle lift.

a lighter bullet with more powder will have more felt recoil (push back into the hand) but will have less muzzle lift and the gun will cycle more quickly.

try a 120gn or 125gn bullet with enough powder to make 128-130pf. then load up a bunch of 135 or 140gn pills with a slightly reduced powder load so they make the same 128-130pf. try both. even shooting from a rest you will clearly see and feel the difference. bettween recoil pushing backwards into your hand, and muzzle lift. they are 2 very different characteristics.

with your grip work on getting your support hand thumb cranked nicely forward along the frame,. the further forward you can get it the better chance it has of controlling the muzzle nicely.

[kcafferk]

I found that shooting glock 34's well just takes a realization that you control the gun. Using good grip trchnique is crucial, but somis thenattitude that this is YOUR gun and you gotta make it your bi7ch

[blaster113]

recoil control starts with a proper stance and grip. If you over grip the gun thats not good. 50/50 grip pressure between strong and weak hand. once a proper grip is established then look at the equipment and load issues. I prefer the feel of 147s in 9mm, though I use a SIG P226 in Production not a Glock. To each his own in that area, but I use a 165 gr .40 bullet in Limited vs. a 180gr. A heavier bullet will give you less muzzle flip. Also try to load to between 130-135 pf if you're not running factory stuff. I personally load to 135 pf as I like the way the way 147s take down steel at that pf. Plus no worries about running sub-minor. If you're running aftermarket springs use the lightest one that will run the gun reliably.

[neckbone]

Ok, we are making progress.

I cut two panels from a grit coated stair tread (home depo) and attached to the gun grip. My new front sight (FO) from Dawson arrived and I installed that. I like the narrower post and the red stands out in sunlight very nicely.

Cranked out 200 rounds at the range and saw improvement. Weak hand was solid. Strong hand needed to reposition slightly for proper trigger finger position after several shots.

I'm looking for the best grip tightness. Too much causes sight movement (shaking) and too loose lets the gun shift. I'll find what works.

Sight recovery improved to where double taps were not embarrassing. At 15 yards I was hitting 'down zeros' with respectable split times; not fast , but ok.

So, the muzzle flip seems somewhat tamed due to the help from you folks. Many thanks.

Now practice, practice, practice......

[Andreas]

I'm looking for the best grip tightness. Too much causes sight movement (shaking) and too loose lets the gun shift. I'll find what works.

Next match, try holding the pistol with your strong hand and asking one of the top shooters at your club to grip the pistol with their weak hand as if they were shooting.