Which grip

[DDustin]

I recently realized that I've been using an incorrect grip. I working on retraining a more "thumbs forward grip" I have a more aggressive and a less aggressive grip. The more aggressive grip feels more natural and more stabile but my palm doesn't contact the grip on my weak hand too much. The less aggressive grip gives me a lot more contact on my palm but it's harder to maintain a hold. Also the more aggressive is slightly more accurate but the pistol shifts a lot in my hand between shots causing me to readjust.

Former grip

Farther forward grip

Lower grip that covers more

Which is more correct?

[GuildSF4]

I recently realized that I've been using an incorrect grip. I working on retraining a more "thumbs forward grip" I have a more aggressive and a less aggressive grip. The more aggressive grip feels more natural and more stabile but my palm doesn't contact the grip on my weak hand too much. The less aggressive grip gives me a lot more contact on my palm but it's harder to maintain a hold. Also the more aggressive is slightly more accurate but the pistol shifts a lot in my hand between shots causing me to readjust.

Which is more correct?

If firing the gun is causing your grip to shift then it is not right for you.

[DDustin]

Honestly both new grips do a little. I'm thinking it's just because I haven't developed the muscle memory yet. The less aggressive grip has less of a problem but for some reason it's harder to get into and doesn't naturally line up the sights like my original grip or the more aggressive grip.

The problem seems to be my hands being too big also, that combined with figuring out weak hand grip pressure. Does the less aggressive grio look right? Would it be better to go back to the old grip?

[kneelingatlas]

Why do your thumbs switch positions between the two grips? I've only ever seen strong thumb on top grips. The weak hand index finger wrapping the trigger guard seems to be more 'old school' but I like it.

I don't have NBA big hands, but kinda big (10" between my thumb and pinkie) and I find myself naturally wrapping the trigger guard on some of my pistols and not others. It seems strange the placement of your weak hand index finger changes the rest of your grip so much.

[toothguy]

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/tactics_training_combatg_100306/

[GuildSF4]

Honestly both new grips do a little. I'm thinking it's just because I haven't developed the muscle memory yet. The less aggressive grip has less of a problem but for some reason it's harder to get into and doesn't naturally line up the sights like my original grip or the more aggressive grip.

The problem seems to be my hands being too big also, that combined with figuring out weak hand grip pressure. Does the less aggressive grio look right? Would it be better to go back to the old grip?

The less agressive grip has more weak hand contact which is good. The fact that it doesn't naturally line up the sights means it is not neutral. The shifting sounds like a strenght issue.

Also check out these posts - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=168601&hl=

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174079&hl=

[davidwebb]

this might be of help to you

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=101Y-yHdr_c

[DDustin]

this might be of help to you

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=101Y-yHdr_c

Thanks, that was helpful. I watched part 1 and 2 and he says to lock your wrist forward and basically use the more aggressive grip which is also the one where my palm makes less contact.

Is there a point where it's too far forward?

[GuildSF4]

You want as much weak hand contact on the grip as you can get. The angle of your weak hand really is dependent on your hands and forearms. Try several varying angles, contact pattern, and grip force til you find what you are looking for.

[DDustin]

You want as much weak hand contact on the grip as you can get. The angle of your weak hand really is dependent on your hands and forearms. Try several varying angles, contact pattern, and grip force til you find what you are looking for.

So the amount of contact you have is more important than the wrist and hand angle? That video make it seem as if locking the wrist was vital to limiting recoil.

[GuildSF4]

More grip contact on the weak hand = more control (assuming same grip pressure)

The pressure you are using on your weak hand that is on your strong hand doesn't have as much effect (picture as if it were 2 sliding surfaces), the pressure on the grip is

proportional to the weak hand grip, however the sliding surface (your strong hand) doesn't transfer all on the grip pressure to the gun, some is used conpressing the strong hand.

Grip pressure / hand strenght is critical, locked wrist maybe not so much. Read the posts referenced in Post #6 they will help this explaination.

[davidwebb]

this might answer your question if it's too forward.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xBmN7mpVZWE&feature=plpp&p=PLF669756659A25E7E

You might want to try to lift out both your elbows. Dave and Bob does this and so do other top shooters.

personally, I think lifting out the elbows would change your wrist angle horizontally and will enable you to get the meatier part of you left hand palm to get contact with the side of the gun.

and yes. grip strength is very very important.

HTH.

Edited October 29, 2013 by davidwebb

[match308]

Excellent guidance!

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/tactics_training_combatg_100306/

[saibot]

Lots of great info here! Just to add a couple of things to consider, NPA, and live fire.

If you watch the great shooters, especially their draw, their times are sub-second to their first shot from the draw. They're probably not any faster than you are, but they are shooting sooner. Watch them next time you're at a match, the instant their pistol enters the A zone they break the shot. They don't poke it out there and bobble it around until the sights look good then shoot. They can do this because their index and natural point of aim (NPA) are spot on. The reason I bring all of this up is because your grip will facilitate this. The breakthrough I had with my grip was when I realized this, and all of the ambiguity with my grip went away once I found the way that allowed it to index perfectly to the target. I stood almost squared up to the target, drew the gun WITH MY EYES CLOSED, and then noticed where the sights were. I played around with this until I could literally draw to the A zone with my eyes closed. I found the grip that allowed that to happen with my NPA.

Now be sure to follow up with that in live fire to validate you're not doing something strange or not getting a grip that mitigates recoil for you. Plus, you want to be sure that the grip pressure allows the gun to return to precisely the position it was in before the shot broke. Play with camming the support hand forward and squeezing the heck out of the grip.

Good luck!

[saibot]

One other thing I'll add to my last post is when it comes to grip, you're never done. You will always be refining it and making subtle adjustments as time goes on. You hear a lot of the great shooters mention that, and Enos and Anderson both mention that in their books. So don't get frustrated, just find what works that puts you on target when you present the gun and adjust it to mitigate recoil then dry fire the daylights out of it. And finally, just pay attention to the sights and what the gun is doing. Let that be your guide.

[davidwebb]

also if i may add, the NPA would vary from pistol to pistol. My Tanfoglio's NPA when I lift it is pretty much aligned. However, my Glock's NPA points upwards and I have to adjust my wrist angle when presenting the gun.

[DDustin]

I'm playing with the back straps now but my NPA in dryfire is messed up in live fire because of my grip issues.

I understand what you mean about the point of aim being different between guns. My 1911 is perfect and so is my XD service, on the other hand my XDm is kinda screwy and giving me a hard time.

I'm still reading the info posted on here, thanks for all the links.

[JupiterAdam]

Check out Shannon Smith in this video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrA7wMXuuQ

[newmexicocrawler]

The "farther forward grip" is correct

[mjk0311]

You have a proper grip in the 2nd picture. Your strong hand should have a firm hand shake type grip not too tight, not too loose. Your support hand is where you need to clamp down, the grip is similar to how you would squeeze a tennis ball. This means all the pressure in your grip comes from your palms and fingers, not from your thumbs. Your support hand palm should be on the grip of the pistol and not on your strong hand. Your index finger is also one of your strongest fingers and is worthless when you put it up on the trigger guard. Having your index finger on the trigger guard will usually cause the shooter to push or pull their shots meaning they go either left or right of the target. I hope this helps.

[saibot]

Great advice, mjk0311. One other thing I'll add to it. Go and shoot into the berm without a target and really watch the sights with the grip from #2 (no touching the trigger guard though). See what the sights are doing. You want them to return exactly back to the pre-ignition state. If they don't, adjust the grip pressure until they do. Grip hard enough that your hands shake, then back off just enough to keep them from shaking and you should be in the ballpark.

[jcc7x7]

Video's, books from top shooters and range time to make sure you're doing it right might be thr fastest way. or get some local pro advice

[LilBunniFuFu]

You have a proper grip in the 2nd picture. Your strong hand should have a firm hand shake type grip not too tight, not too loose. Your support hand is where you need to clamp down, the grip is similar to how you would squeeze a tennis ball. This means all the pressure in your grip comes from your palms and fingers, not from your thumbs. Your support hand palm should be on the grip of the pistol and not on your strong hand. Your index finger is also one of your strongest fingers and is worthless when you put it up on the trigger guard. Having your index finger on the trigger guard will usually cause the shooter to push or pull their shots meaning they go either left or right of the target. I hope this helps.

+1 Most shooters use this grip and it is the best for most. BUT. The current Production Champion Eric Grauffel uses a finger over trigger guard grip. Although he does teach the aforementioned grip. All that matters is what works for you.

[nsginc]

This has helped me a lot. Thank you all

[Whoops!]

You have a proper grip in the 2nd picture. Your strong hand should have a firm hand shake type grip not too tight, not too loose. Your support hand is where you need to clamp down, the grip is similar to how you would squeeze a tennis ball. This means all the pressure in your grip comes from your palms and fingers, not from your thumbs. Your support hand palm should be on the grip of the pistol and not on your strong hand. Your index finger is also one of your strongest fingers and is worthless when you put it up on the trigger guard. Having your index finger on the trigger guard will usually cause the shooter to push or pull their shots meaning they go either left or right of the target. I hope this helps.

+1 Most shooters use this grip and it is the best for most. BUT. The current Production Champion Eric Grauffel uses a finger over trigger guard grip. Although he does teach the aforementioned grip. All that matters is what works for you.

When Grauffel uses his finger over the trigger guard, he still cams the support hand further forward as in the 2nd grip shown. In using both grip techniques of Grauffel's, I believe he is doing the right thing by teaching support hand under the trigger guard to novice's, as that grip is more easily learned and perfected than the support finger in front of the trigger guard. It is also not affected by the shape of the trigger guard, so you can teach it to a class full of students without individually changing each one.

Also, a note to the OP, at this point the best thing you can do for your recoil control is change your platform. I don't recommend the XDM. This is coming from someone who has shot pretty much everything available in the US and is completely impartial to gun manufacture or appearance. In fact, I think the XDM's are the best looking and feeling polymer guns on the market. It's their performance characteristics that suck. Don't get me wrong on this either, in my experience they are substantially more reliable than M&P's and CZ's, but the muzzle flip is the issue. Also, the mag release is extremely firm.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Whoops!