and you thought a Texas star was bad?

[mcoliver]

No. Rule 2.1.8.4 only applies to static targets (i.e. those which don't move or are not activated).

Oh I see, thanks Vince. (An incident stuck in my mind about the question of legality of a particular movig target: a partial target placed in the middle of a big tire and letting it roll acros the range.) I should start remembering rules!

[Vince Pinto]

I think where some might be getting hung up is in our very name, International Practical Shooting Confederation. Is shooting 4 paper targets that rotate practical?  Is shooting a Texas Star that produces its own variables depending on how it is shot practical? The shooter and their equipment should be the variable, not the targets.

Dave, I'm delighted to see you understand. For everybody else, I'll just quote Willy G. Davidson:

"If you have to ask the question, you wouldn't understand the answer".

[RogerT]

Hi.

At our club championship today (19 degrees F , sun and snow) we encountered this variety of the Texas windmill.........

Only upper A and B shots counted... one hit in each counted.

How about that!!

And we engaged the targets truogh a 8 in hole in the middle of a wall of no-shoots.

Thank god the "windmill" was static........

Edited November 21, 2004 by RogerT

[Vince Pinto]

Only upper A and B shots counted... one hit in each counted.

From the "If you can see it, you can't shoot it" school of course design.

[Flexmoney]

Vince, glad you put that smiley in there...without which...why...I...I...I might feel insulted.

"If you have to ask the question, you wouldn't understand the answer". 

Niiice. I don't know, maybe I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

Often though, when I read a statement like that, I get the feeling that the person has no basis to support their position.

This is a shooting discussion forum. Lets talk it out.

- Some have coined the term "carnival targets" to discribe the target presentation apparatus. And, have stated they don't have a place in IPSC...that they aren't practical.

- I submit that they more practical than the standard (static) targets that we shoot.

[BigDave]

Kyle,

Here is where I'm coming from. Let's assume you have a field course and in one position you have 4 wide open targets at varrying, static positions, but are visible from only one position. Can you change the position of those targets between shooters? No, because you're the callenge will not be the same for all competitors, right? I see the Star the same way.

I think it (the Star) is a good challenge, but I'm not sure it fits in the framwork of our rules. I could be wrong, though, and that would be okay, too.

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

OK, let me try one more time, with feeling (these Prozac are damn good!).

When I criticise targets as being "Coney Island" targets, I mean they have no relevance to IPSC, which in turns mean "they're not something you would be called upon to shoot with your gun in a defensive situation", and this alludes back to our roots.

One of the reasons some USPSA members prefer the Metric Target over the Classic Target is because the former more accurately depicts a bad guy, and we mostly present bad guys as static targets, but we also try to emulate human movement. Your typical side to side swinger behind a window depicts a bad guy running past it. A drop-turner target depicts a bad guy coming out from behind cover and retreating, as do targets which rotate on a vertical axis. And a running man target depicts, well, a running man. These are realistic target presentations which have relevance to IPSC.

What does the Texas Windmill depict? Five bad guys hog-tied to a windmill? An aerial view of five bad guys on a merry-go-round? As an aside, this is precisely why we have Rule 2.1.8.4 - the impetus was the Metric Target (not the Classic Target, as those who were not involved in the rules process insist), because it just doesn't make any sense or relevance having it presented statically inverted.

There's absolutely no doubt that all of the targets mentioned here are shooting challenges, but so is shooting beer bottles or bowling pins. In fact, you could argue that shooting them is more relevant to IPSC because they can depict Molotov Cocktails.

Anyway, I know that you will never agree with my arguments, but you asked, and I answered.

[Flexmoney]

Dave,

The plates on a Star can only move in one arc...equal to the radius of the arm of the star. Just like a swinger.

The speed, is controlled by the choice the shooter makes regarding the order they knock the plates off. That, and the laws of physics. Each individual plate is, itself, an activator for the remaining plates.

During a stage with a swinger, I can choose to activate the swinger early, then go shoot other targets, coming back to the swinger...which will now be going slow (or maybe even have stopped)...due to my choice of target engagement order...and the laws of physics.

[ima45dv8]

While setting up our club's quarterly 3-gun match yesterday, we took a break and shot our rifle-rated Star for a few minutes. A Star at 25 yards is fun. A Star at 25 yards with your friend's M1 Garrand is even more fun.

The reaction of the plates when struck with a .30-06 was impressive. Instead of being knocked off of the arms of the Star, it was more like they were being ripped off and thrown in the direction of the backstop! Too cool!

If folks want to get all wrapped around the axel because Stars aren't practical enough, then maybe we should examine the issue from both directions. But that would only serve to open a whole can of worms about competitors guns and holsters maybe not being practical enough.

Nah....we don't want to do that, do we?

I prefer to set it up, shoot it, enjoy it, and learn from it. YMMV.

[Gary Johnson]

I think stars and windmills are great. I say this as someone who absolutely sucks at hitting them. Arguing that they aren't 'practical' or too 'carnival' doesn't hold water.

If IPSC was really about 'practicality' we wouldn't allow race guns. I've never seen a 'practical' sidearm with a cocking handle hanging off the slide. Many open rifles would also not pass the 'practical' test.

Arguing that they don't offer uniform presentation is also mistaken. they may offer variable presentation but it varies the same way for every shooter.

A star shot the same way every time will turn the same way every time. I agree that it may be unfair to shooters who don't have access to them for practice.

A windmill offers a more uniform presentation than the star and some drop turners. We use one at my club that is activated by a weight and pulley. It starts out slow, speeds up, and slows down. At full speed it's a blur but that's part of the challenge. If you're really fast you nail it as it winds up. If you're really slow you wait for it to wind down (or in my case, stop )

Windmills that are driven at constant speeds have to be set so they can be engaged. I personally wouldn't set one to turn faster than 15 RPM. That's four seconds per revolution or one second per target. More than enough time for anyone (but me) to finish it off in one spin. If Taran Butler ran into one that he couldn't hit I would say it was set way too fast.

Stars and windmills inject a little variability into what can otherwise become a highly rehearsed shooting ballet. I understand why some don't like them (I break out in a cold sweat at the sight of a star) but that doesn't mean they don't belong in IPSC.

[Loves2Shoot]

Stars and windmills inject a little variability into what can otherwise become a highly rehearsed shooting ballet. I understand why some don't like them (I break out in a cold sweat at the sight of a star) but that doesn't mean they don't belong in IPSC.

Windmills are hard to make operate the same for every shooter. The speed can be greatly impacted by setup and wind, thus can provide very different challenges for the various shooter. There are enough variables (wind, rain, light) we can't control, it is my opinion that we don't need more variables to add to that.

[Flexmoney]

L2S,

That is a valid point.

ANY target needs to be fair (not luck) and consistent...for each and every shooter.

[Liota]

Stars and windmills inject a little variability into what can otherwise become a highly rehearsed shooting ballet. I understand why some don't like them (I break out in a cold sweat at the sight of a star) but that doesn't mean they don't belong in IPSC.

Windmills are hard to make operate the same for every shooter. The speed can be greatly impacted by setup and wind, thus can provide very different challenges for the various shooter. There are enough variables (wind, rain, light) we can't control, it is my opinion that we don't need more variables to add to that.

Variability in the weather will affect all targets except static paper and steel plates that fall off the stick.

Variability in setup will cause problems. The variability in setup is why you have good RO's who make sure all is set up the same every time. When I go to a local match, it is the squad mommy or RO who makes sure. When I am the CRO/RO at a major match, I train two or three people from the squad how the setup is supposed to go and tell them it is their ONLY setup detail. After they set up, I go back, check and make adjustments as necessary. I use paint to mark the spots on arm and stick. When I follow this procedure, all shooters get an equal presentation.

As for the practicality of those targets, they have a very good place in "practical" shooting. They teach you how to deal with things slightly less scripted. How many "real world" situations ever went the way they did in practice? Almost none. Granted, with the star, you know in advance that if you shoot the bottom plate first, it will spin wildly in one direction or another. If you shoot the top one, it barely moves. It is predictable. The first time I shot it, I called Terry Ashton some pretty interesting names, heck! I think I made up a few. After that, once I learned how it moved, no problem, unless I caused one. Keep in mind, the first time I saw one was at a little steel-only match that occurred between my first and second USPSA match.

My .02

Liota

[BigDave]

Dave,

The plates on a Star can only move in one arc...equal to the radius of the arm of the star. Just like a swinger.

The speed, is controlled by the choice the shooter makes regarding the order they knock the plates off. That, and the laws of physics. Each individual plate is, itself, an activator for the remaining plates.

During a stage with a swinger, I can choose to activate the swinger early, then go shoot other targets, coming back to the swinger...which will now be going slow (or maybe even have stopped)...due to my choice of target engagement order...and the laws of physics.

That is an intesting point, Kyle, regarding how the one plate is activator for the others. I never thought of it that way.

[Gary Johnson]

Windmills are hard to make operate the same for every shooter. The speed can be greatly impacted by setup and wind, thus can provide very different challenges for the various shooter. There are enough variables (wind, rain, light) we can't control, it is my opinion that we don't need more variables to add to that.

I concur in part. Wind can change the way a windmill moves just like it can blow over target stands. A good setup takes this into account.

Keep in mind however that IPSC allows for some variability in presentation and target motion. Rain is not grounds for a re-shoot even though it alters the way targets look/move. In the case of wind, the only time I've granted re-shoots is when a target was blown over or failed to activate/activated early.

Other than natural influences like wind and rain there isn't much that will change the way a prop moves if it is properly set up and reset the same way after every shooter.

[TRNinTX]

How many times have you seen the wind change the exposure time of a DT? It happens all the time and there is nothing we can do about that.

In a match, just like a golf tournament, conditions can change dramatically from morning to afternoon. Does this make the stages shot by one group in the AM inconsistent and unfair for the group in the PM? The argument can be made, and I think Flex made it in another thread, that bagging targets completely changes the presentation of that target.

[BigDave]

I think the question though is the inherit variability of the target itself.

[diehli]

After shooting a (modified) TX* at Richmond this weekend, I'm gonna have to side w/ Flex on this one... just another shooting challenge.

[rhino]

I set a new "record" for myself on the Star yesterday during our 3-Gun match. I got it with six shots. I should have done it in five, but I got excited after I hit the first four with my first four shots and mashed the trigger on my fifth.

I still think the key is that it starts the same for everyone, then what happens next depends on what the shooter does to it. If two people shoot it in the same order at the same pace, they will see pretty much the same presentation of the targets.

[ErikW]

We've got one in Reno that Monte the Merciless always sets up pre-loaded with a bungee cord and activated so it rotates. Cool with a shotgun. Sucks with a pistol.

[Tom Mainus]

We bought one of the Texas Windmills this year and we busted her out for the WI sectional. We set it up as more of a timing stage. Depending on your ability, some guys shot at the targets right away, others activated it and engaged other targets and then came back to it when it slowed down a little. All I know is we had roughly 70 shooters shoot that stage and I did not get one negative feedback about it. If the shooters like it, its alright in my book.

Tom Mainus

[Dead Buff]

My 0.02....

The TX bobber look real cool - a good shooting challenge and sensible exposures.

The TX windmill would look good if the bottom half was covered with H/C - which would make it..............a TX bobber.... with different exposures.

Then put the WM out at ±20m and hide sections of it and I'm willing to put money on it that a great lot of shooters will not recognise if they have shot at a target or not since they can not see holes. We're not a mem contest.

The TX* (which has been discussed to death...) I think is OK if you have 2 horisontal plates. Any other config becomes too variable...

We had a running windmill - 3 targets, often with PT's turning while "running"...needless to say it was scraped. Same with the plate hidden behind the A-zone of a target to act as activator....Too much a a guessing/luck game than a real repeatable challenge.

[scorch]

Oh Come on Guys! The Windmill is different and Fun and presents its self the same every time if it is set up in an area unaffected by wind. Wind can make move differently, near a berm is a good spot. The one we have is almost impossible to set up wrong (you can make it go the opposite direction by winding the string on the shaft on the other side But that is where the RO or the club staff come in write down the instructions.

Its fun and its cheap to buy only 90.00 now. The One we have does not spin like a propeller. Which I agree is not a shooting challenge, Just throw some bullets at it and HOPE. We tested ours for about 10 match and set it up, speed wise, so that an A-B class could double tap each target and C-D class shooters could single each as they came around twice. Most GM - M's would Shoot something else and wait for it to speed up, as it spins longer, very consistenly.

We have used it at the texas state limited for two years, 300plus shooters, and not one hick up, no arb's... its just FUN... not Practical, as said earlier neither is OPEN class, but its fun also and thats why I shoot... its fun!

I personal would not use it in a big match it takes to much time to reset and will slow the stage down alot. Also the Texas Bobber is an Attachment that connects to the windmill to make it act that way. BTW I am the builder of the Windmill and bobber on the web page sited. (I let you in on a secret always try to shoot it with the Targets coming in from the top of your gun and not the Bottom if you can) both videos on our web site are in Quicktime and show the speed we recommend and supply it with ( there are mean SOB out there that thinks its funny when it goes faster)

One Last thing we do to beat the disappearing target thing put a small weight on the corner of the target sticks so only one target is disapearing and let the shooter figure out which one it is as the windmill is spining, bet he tries to shoot all of them. Of course got to give him the no penality mikes on the one that really does go behind the cover.

scorch

[Kory]

I lkie the TX*, unless somebody does something evil like uses it as a noshoot in front of an array of paper.